JESUS AND ZEN (page 2)

melmoth

Terry - I understand what you mean but you are missing the point. Zen is about giving the listener something to think about, something that will prompt him to reach a discovery on his own. In this context, ambiguity or statements that seem self-contradictory are the beginning of the real process. It does require 'independent thinking' to work, though.

OpenFireGlass

Does the author go into, 1 Timothy 5:8? That's another verse that I ponder ofter, and use as a rebutle when confronting my mom...

1 Timothy 5:8 - certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his hosehold, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.

onesong

OFG, No he only focuses on the gospels.

OpenFireGlass

But none the less you could see how I use this to justify not going to 5 meetings a week, and not having time to knock on peoples doors, etc...

Terry

Terry - I understand what you mean but you are missing the point. Zen is about giving the listener something to think about, something that will prompt him to reach a discovery on his own. In this context, ambiguity or statements that seem self-contradictory are the beginning of the real process. It does require 'independent thinking' to work, though.

Oh, I'm quite familiar with Koans and their "purpose".

However....

Do you learn to play chess by making up your own moves, strategies and power of pieces? What you end up with is not-chess.

Reality is dramatically in our face every moment. Survival skills are actually ability-to-deal-with-reality skills. It is a practical matter.

Making up your own "reality" (~~reality)~~ is like playing chess with reality not knowing the actual moves or powers of the pieces.

I think the chaotic state of human affairs on Earth stems from man's penchant to prefer his make-believe insistance on NON-REALITY skills and reliance on invisible forces to rescue him. When, all along....it is just a failure to self-rely on a rational learning process that negotiates obstacles in the real world.

Games and puzzles aren't really games and puzzles IF THERE IS NO ACTUAL RULE or SOLUTION.

Otherwise....just think of a baseball game where the batter "pretends" he knocked an invisible ball out of the park and claims a point for his side!

melmoth

Terry -
The idea isn't to make up your own reality (though it could be argued that this is precisely what we all do anyway, continuously), but rather to see reality clearly.
Also, there is a solution to the 'game or puzzle' as you put it. It's just not handed to you.

onesong

I'm not sure about taking the magnificience, beauty, mystery and unlimitedness of life and reducing it to a chess match or baseball game.

OpenFireGlass

The idea isn't to make up your own reality (though it could be argued that this is precisely what we all do anyway, continuously), but rather to see reality clearly.

Also, there is a solution to the 'game or puzzle' as you put it. It's just not handed to you

Another analogy would be: Life is like growing a garden... There's alot of people who may swear by, "Mirical-Gro"... But that is not the only way to grow your garden green...

I mean, Yes there is an optimal formula to grow a nice garden, but not everyone uses "Miricle-Gro"... some of us use bone meal, blood meal, and chicken manure. While others use, bat guanno, soy meal, and fish emulsion. And yet there is the person who is afraid to experiment, who swear that "Mirical-Gro" is the only way to go....

Terry

I'm not sure about taking the magnificience, beauty, mystery and unlimitedness of life and reducing it to a chess match or baseball game.

Magnificent what?

Beautiful what?

Mysterious what?

Unlimited what?

You see, for those adjectives to embrace "meaning" there must be an object.

REALITY is objective.

onesong

Why must everything be an object in order to be defined?

For instance what exactly is a thought? Is it an object, concrete and tangible?

What is an emotion?

What is space but the absence of objects and yet we can define it.

JESUS AND ZEN

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