Mankind's search for god / What is true from the bible?
by GBSJG 16 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Lapuce
True it was one of the rare books which I actually found interesting, we never studied that one though at book study.
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peacefulpete
Welcome btw, The topics you raised are discussed here often and so I'd recommend going back in the Bible research section history and scanning for threads that interest you. The mythic "quality" of the OT stories is the first cue to you that what we have is simply another version of the legends of the region. If it were not for our indoctrination from youth would we have even entertained the idea of talking snakes and donkeys being real? Our rational mind struggles with our religious training. The stories of other cultures of the Near East and beyond that resemble or parallel OT and NT stories are not evidence that the stories reflect an historical truth but rather that those cultures that had contact had religious/cultural influence upon each other. Myths like language can be somewhat retraced to there earliest forms. The Jewish forms (that made it into the OT) are typical of the time and region, there is nothing terribly original or uniquely historical about them. Some of these stories and poems were centuries old by the time the final redactors incorporated them into the collection (often giving them a new context) and so betray an earlier more primative cult than those of later writers like Isaiah (I,II,III). Some mythemes were deliberately drawn from antiquity as a stylistic choice like the use of the conflict myth (chaos water dragon battle) being used in Revelation as it had been used extensively throughout the OT with little regard for its original symbolism. The fact that this very same mytheme of dragon monsters being vanquished pervades much of the cult and culture of the region does not indicate that such an event really occurred. The same is true of flood stories and gods coming to earth to have sex, forbidden fruit from sacred trees etc..
Here's a bangup thread Leolaia did a while back on the conflict myth:http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/68098/1.ashx
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Leolaia
If you look at websites that help Jews not to get misled by Christian missionaries, you will find very good expositions of how NT writers misapply OT verses to Jesus. In fact, Jews are hopping mad at NT writers for the way they misuse the OT.
Well, there is a polemical basis to this too, particularly since Christianity is counter-Judaism in many respects (especially in view of supercessionism). In reality, the early Christian authors used the OT freely in just the same way as in the most cherished Jewish haggadah, or even within the OT itself (see here for instance). This method of biblical interpretation used by the writers of the NT was no Christian innovation at all....they used OT material to construct new stories just as was popular at the time in Judaism.
PP...I've been reading some fascinating stuff on the Christian use of the conflict myth to characterize baptism (which curiously the Catholic concept of "holy water" is related to), so I might just add that to the thread at some point in time.
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FSMonster
You're giving Bible too much credit to start with. Just think of the Flood myth, and how ridiculous it is and what does it tell us about Bible's credibility. It's nothing more than a really big thick propaganda mind-raping 'leaflet' whose message to its adherents is "beleive what's written here and you'll be part of the superior bunch because we're all good and they're all bad."
Read this to do away with Bible crap and it's fake 'authority':
Missquoting Jesus
Next, deprogram yourself of all the lies about science and evolution and ditch religion altogether:
The Blind Watchmaker
The Selfish Gene
Bottom line, read a lot, forget about so-called 'worldly views' and Watchtower lies.
Good luck and have fun learning.. -
OnTheWayOut
I haven't read the other replies yet, because I wanted my comment to be fresh on the original questions.
Is there a God? Is the Bible inspired by God? Did Jesus exist? Why are there so many religions? I don't know. After deciding the WTS is full of crap, I have a hard time believing anything. I'm afraid to commit. But I have done some research-
I believe that Jesus was a real historical man, but many experts suggest things similar to THE DA VINCI CODE, that we only know what was passed on, but unlike that book, they think he was JUST A MAN. It is possible that the Gospels were written to make him the Messiah. Matthew's Gospel addresses how to make him born in a certain place, but be from another. The other gospels either offer a different beginning explanation or they just skip it. The same with other "prophecies." The writers deliberately said things happened as fulfillment. Perhaps Jesus was an expert on Jewish scriptures who said great wise things, rode a donkey to Jerusalem, proclaimed himself [son of] God. Do we need 4 Gospels that are almost but not quite in harmony? What of other gospels that may have been written that didn't line up with the other 4? Was Paul a guy like Joseph Rutherford or Jim Baker, or was he actually contacted by Christ?
If the first century through thrid century church re-wrote and edited, could we have a fanciful story that many believe as true. Virtually none of the scholars accepts the prophecy of the Old Testament. They think most [or all] was written after the fact. What if the gospels were not all written until everyone got their story straight- why wouldn't they be more in harmony if they were true?
I don't think the laws of the OT are from a God. They are from the priests and leaders, written mostly near and after the Babylonian captivity. The priests gained credibility for YHWH when Cyrus allowed them to go back and rebuild the temple with his blessings. Other Hebrews said that maybe these guys are right. Then they needed their laws to control the people. Complicated laws, they made it up to suit themselves. Did ANYONE ever FULLY OBEY those laws? I doubt it. The laws of the OT are not from a loving God- true.
Jesus really existed and that he got a lot of people exicted enough to start a new religion because the priests were losing their grip at that time. There were tons of Messiahs around the area. Most were discovered to be false. Jesus died, others made him what he is.
ALL THAT I SAY, I KINDA SORTA BELIEVE. I don't really know either, perhaps the fundamental Christians are right.
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OnTheWayOut
Leolaia Re: Mankind's search for god / What is true from the bible? What is unnerving about the gospels is that they rely so heavily on OT exegetical traditions...this is particularly the case with the passion narrative, but it is also the case with many of the miracle narratives and other stories. The impression this leaves is that the authors actually knew rather little and relied on the OT to describe what happened to Jesus. There are also a lot of prophecies about his coming.
How many of these are really prophecies and how many of these are turned post facto into messianic predictions by being used in the NT as source material for narratives about Jesus? This is an important question, because the OT passages when read on their own terms largely do not have any messianic import at all; they attain this status only after being adopted as proof texts
Yes, if Jesus wasn't exactly what he needed to be, let's make him so.