To Put My Questions In Context

by Joe Grundy 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    I am, as you will see, a very junior member of this forum. I have so far explained my interest in JWs in my earlier posts, and I have asked what must seem to many here some very naieve questions about JW beliefs and practices. When I raised questions about the young children of my JW neighbours, a post or two implied that I may be a strange old man for taking an interest in children. Another poster confessed to being a little intimidated by the fact that I am a recently retired 30 year police officer. One queried my interest in ex JWs and whether I found them an entertainment. I have no criticsm of those viewpoints whatsoever. In the circumstances, I might wonder the same.

    So, I want to explain a little about who/what I am, where I am coming from, and hope that I can continue to ask what may seem to some stupid questions. To be honest, it seems a little self-indulgent to be posting this about ME, and it doesn't come easy. But my life experiences are very different from most posters here - although I can relate in many ways.

    I was raised in a non-exclusive Plymouth Brethren sect. Bible fundamentalists (in a UK rather than a US way). My paternal grandfather was a Welsh coal miner who, in the early 1900s was a bare-knuckle prize-fighter (in his spare time, which wasn't much) who became 'born again' - no doubt in one of the 'revivals' in the South Wales valleys - and with a few others built a 'Gospel Hall' (literally - it was corrugated iron) in their mining village. He was an absolute believer in the Bible as literal truth - if the Bible had said that Jonah swallowed a whale he would have believed that without a problem.

    My earliest memory of him was when I was about 4 (c. 1960). He was lucky - he had survived until retirement. His much younger brother died in his late 40s of 'the dust' in about 1962. Dadn's house was hung with plaques, e.g. 'Christ is the guest at every meal' etc. He firmly believed that the Italian cafe in the village was the house of the devil because it had a snooker table.

    After some pretty hard service in WWII, my father married in 1945. His first wife died in her mid 20s in 1952, leaving him with sons aged 6 and 2 (my elder 'half' brothers). He met my mother through the columns of an evangelical christian magazine ('The Christian Herald') and they soon married. My mother was also a member of the 'Brethren', and had come from a hard and poor childhood. Her mother was an unquestioning fundamentalist believer from a poor family (she entered domestic service at 13), and I can remember her telling me as a very young child of a grave in her home town of a woman whose arms had dropped off because she was knitting on a Sunday. She absolutely believed this.

    My over-riding recollection of the Brethren is that they were excellent scholars of the Bible - and only the Bible - but got very caught up in the minutiae of doctrine and didn't really exercise much 'christian love'. The gospel hall was very plain - the only adornment was a painted banner saying 'God is Love', and hymns were largely unaccompanied. In the Sunday morning 'breaking of bread' service, there was no formal agenda or sermon - people would stand and pray, or read a Bible passage, or start a hymn, or say a few words - as they 'felt led'. Anyone who had accepted the 'born again' doctrine - and that they had a 'personal experience' of Jesus as saviour - was welcome to share the bread and wine.

    In my early teens, seeking something a bit different, I started attending a pentecostal church. Again, please bear in mind that these may be a little different in UK than US. The doctrines were very similar, based on a 'gnostic' personal experience. Whilst they were a little more formal, it was still absolutely OK - even welcomed - if a member of the (small) congregation stood during a service, even during the pastor's address - to offer a comment or a prayer. I have never ever encountered such 'Christian Love' as I did in that small congregation (about 40 people), and it may say something for them that the first service I wandered into was a memorial service for an old dear aged 80+.

    A couple of years later, geographical moves and all, I was attending a Welsh (English language) Baptist Church. (Again, probably different from a US Baptist church). Much less personal commitment than I was used to, a bit like an Anglican (Episcopalian) church without the pomp. But, as a Welshman, loved the singing! (As an aside, on my very limited visits to a KH - 3 - I told them that if they had 100 people in a Welsh chapel singing it would have blown the socks off 100 JWs).

    Married young (23) and wife and I started going to an English Baptist church - living in England by now. Very small congregation (about 25) but extremely personally committed. Pastor was what I would call a 'real man of God', and much love and care exhibited to the wider community. I became very keen on studying the Bible, wanted to apply it to all aspects of life, but - the more I studied the less I could accept. Finally got to the stage where I am now - an atheist but with a deep interest in religion, especially those derived from Pauline Christianity, and how that affects so many people.

    So, here I am. Although 'an outsider' as far as JWs are concerned, I can appreciate being brought up in, or believing in, a faith. As far as life in general is concerned, as a 30 year police officer, most as a detective and retiring at 'senior rank' (i.e. not senior enough to dictate policy but senior enough to catch the crap) who dealt with murder, child abuse, white collar crime etc. etc. I have seen enough of life's shitty side to prevent me sleeping sometimes - but I can still regard life with wide-eyed wonder and remark on just how 'nice' some people are. I can't get my hair cut too short because the physical scars still show!

    That's my story. I hope people will accept it for what it is, and me for who I am. I hope to be able to continue asking naieve questions here and receiving interesting and thought-provoking responses. I can feel (as a human being) for many of the situations I have read here. I can offer little support from an educated point of view, because I've never been a JW. But as a person I can, and do.

    Regards.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Interesting bio, especially that you were raised "open" Brethren. The "closed" brethren are similar to the JWs in a few ways, so you were fortunate to miss that experience.

    Keep on asking questons, and enjoy. Just try to enjoy the experience and be a little less intense - it'll reduce folks feelings of being under the microscope

    LT, of the "lives in the region of the Lewis Revivals" class.

  • nelly136
    nelly136

    nice to meet you joe

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    Thanks for the response, LT!

    I don't know how widespread the 'closed' brethren is nowadays - IME they were so good at splitting off and schisms that they may be so fragmented they have disappeared up their own doctrines!

    As my favourite author Garrison Keillor once said (or nearly said) 'Our church was so small only we and God knew about it'.

    I take your point about microscopic examination. I have no desire to place anyone on this board in a difficult position. But as far as the organisation is concerned, one point I held to, and encouraged, when investigating white-collar crime (imagine 60 pages of close-typed documents about 'guaranteed off-shore bonds') was to ask the bad guys 'Cut the crap, what does it mean in your own words?'. Always enlightening, and sometimes enough to get a conviction.

  • Stephanus
    Stephanus

    Having spent some time at an Open Brethren chapel myself, I find your story very interesting, Joe.

    Are you the type of atheist who dismisses all Christians as crazy, stupid or weak, or is your viewpoint more generous than that?

    And I can sympathise with not being fully understood by ex-Dubs on this board -my own motives have been questioned on occasion.

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    Stephanus:

    No, I don't condemn anyone for their religious beliefs. I just find it fascinating (now, but troublesome before) how some people can suppress their natural enquiring minds to accept things without carrying out the normal checks and balances most of us apply in everyday life.

    For example, my Dad. He has Alzheimers' now, poor bugger, but in his prime had a superb brain. He was the youngest ever to get to his rank in the UK civil service, and was the sort of guy who would do algebra problems as a hobby. All of us kids until the disease got him recently would ask for advice - and he would always have a new and considered way of looking at things. And he was by no means immune from life's problems, though it took a lot of dragging out to get him to tell you about them.

    But he had a knack - shared by a lot of people, I feel - of shutting off a part of his life to do with religious things. For example, read the NT and it becomes clear that the 'disciples of Jesus', including James, felt it necessary to send out their own missionaries to correct what Paul was teaching. Why? Was it perhaps that Paul wasn't the seamless 'apostle' continuing the teachings of Jesus as we had been led to believe?

    And my Dad - and I love him to bits, he is the wisest man I have ever known - could quite happily close his mind to the discrepancies in the Bible.

    I think no less of anyone for being able to close off the 'religious' side of their mind from their 'real life' one. It is what they have been conditioned to do.

    Perhaps it is me who is 'out of step' because I can't do it.

  • luna2
    luna2

    Thanks for the bio, Joe. Most interesting. I don't mind your questions, though I can't always answer coherently. lol

  • HappyDad
    HappyDad

    Thanks for the bio and keep coming back. I have always enjoyed your comments and never had a doubt about you. That is one of my major faults "too trusting!" And that trust has bit me in the arse this past year. (nothing to do with JW's).

    HappyDad

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    Hi Joe - welcome.

    I just find it fascinating (now, but troublesome before) how some people can suppress their natural enquiring minds to accept things without carrying out the normal checks and balances most of us apply in everyday life.

    I was never a JW either although I have studied and I'm married to a lifer. (now ex JW) I was fortunate in that my parents held no hard and fast religious beliefs for their kids. My mother is Catholic and did her own thing and my father believed in supporting organizations like the Salvation Army simply because of their community works in helping people. I could and did attend various churches and studied whatever I wanted with no pressure to conform to anything by them - our beliefs are accepted without question by them - whatever those beliefs may be and our position in the family is not determined by any religion. That is probably why I too found it fascinating that people could actually accept everything they are told without question and why I get so frustrated now when I see how people are treated once they do start to question. As a JW - if you question it means you are wavering. If you are questioning/wavering its a simple step to label you an apostate and from there a simple step to disfellowshipping/death. Families only accept you on condition of being one of them in their religion - coming from a family where that condition does not exist, I find it pretty appalling to imagine that your parents would rather you kill yourself than leave the Society. sammieswife.

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    Thanks for the comments, all.

    Happy Dad: I don't know if this helps or not. For all of my time as a cop I was extremely cynical. Most of the time, that was proved to be the right approach. But sometimes, just sometimes, it was completely wrong. For example (and those with no 'outside' experience of life may find this hard to accept) some of my best friends when I was a young detective were prostitutes. Why? Well, they were honest (in all senses), they had no pretentions about what they did for a living, they were vulnerable (and OMG, they were abused beyond belief) but they had a sense of decency and honour that was often a lot more developed and 'loving' than you'd find in many more 'normal' societal groups.

    Particularly while I was a DI i/c Fraud Squad/MLU, we had a squad saying - 'TNF'- or 'trust nobody'. And it worked fine.

    But since I have retired, I have adjusted my views. Someone (I think it was Bill Bryson) said someting like - 'There are two ways to go through life. You can trust nobody, run little chance of being ripped off. Or you can trust everyone, get ripped off a few times, but have a lot more adventures'.

    Me, I'm having adventures.

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