Joe, I was a little confused by your heading but I think I have it now. I don't know if I agree with the voluntary position, simply because when one is in the cult they already brainwashed enough that they simply agree with everything and many just accept a JC and take their licks. They do this because they believe they are bad and should be punished and if they act repentent, they won't be df'd. Its sad when you have parents abdicating the lives of their kids to the Elders instead of handling family issues themselves. Most Elders can give you pages of confessions and a lot from kids who have done things wrong, gone to their parents who then have turned them into the Elders to deal with the problem. We had the boogey man growing up.....those kids had the threat of death and a meeting with the Elders. You should also be aware, that if one of your witnesses was a 'worldly' person they probably wouldn't allow it. All wordly people are immoral..you know, all we do is get drunk, take a lot of drugs, watch porn and screw around like animals. We don't love one another and will lie, cheat and steal whenever we get a chance. It's ridiculous. swife.
Judicial Committees and the 'Two Witnesses' Rule
by Joe Grundy 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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AudeSapere
Joe Grundy wrote: A JC only has 'competent jurisdiction' over a JW if the JW consents to that jurisdiction.
OK. That could be true. And the 'accused' may have decided not to consent to the jurisdiction.
But - the 'hearing' could still take place and sanctions could be placed on the 'accused'. The CONGREGATION learns of the judicial decision and sanctions and the congregations then consents to uphold them.
Seems that the only difference is that the accused has made a stand for him/herself although there is no real difference in how the congregation and probably associated family will interact with this person.
-Aude.
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XJW4EVR
DUring one of my two Judicial Committee
hearingsinquisitions, a cherge was leveled against me that I told a then recently divorced single sister that her and I should have breakfast at a local hotel. I adamantly denied the charge, and asked that if she didn't have a witness to this statement that she should be brought in front of JC on charges of slander. To which the chairman of the JC, who had a son involved in another JC for fornication, ie. pre-marital sex, told me that the purpose of the JC was to determine charges against me, and that my attitude demonstrated that I was not repentant.When I spoke with my dad (P.O./WT Study Conductor/CBS Conductor), and told him about what had happened, he said that it would be best to "wait on Jehovah." I told my dad in no uncertain terms, that just because I had made mistakes, that others should not be able to pile on me.
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Confession
The JWs are a very rule-led organisation and it seems to me that WTBTS has tried to cover every eventuality and lay down directions for it in their various manuals, etc. (Strikes me as an effort to gain complete control and eliminate any independence or avenue for personal conscience led decisions).
This reality is important for two reasons.
1) Despite what the organization says, it is clear that they believe they have been cloaked with authority from Almighty God. Note what our fellow contributor LDH took straight from J.R. Brown's mouth in her interview with him regarding the Jesus Cano incident...
VERBATIM from my hand written notes
- JWs are BIBLE STUDENTS only. The Governing Body is NOT SPIRIT INSPIRED.
- JWS as a whole are NOT INSPIRED
- JWs are not the ONLY spokesperson organization of God on earth
- THERE IS NO SPECIAL LINE TO GOD that the JW church has
Yes, despite this, they have--as Joe indicates--laid down many, many rules, covering almost every conceivable aspect of life. And they expect the rank and file JWs to follow those rules, under threat of disfellowshipping. A person who does not agree with a rule may be expelled and shunned, because one who goes against "Jehovah's spirit directed organization" is going against Jehovah Himself. So J.R. Brown is trying to hide his and the Society's true belief about the organization's relationship with God.
2) It seems this effort to eliminate most any independent decision-making makes it incredibly difficult for JWs to become true Christians, since it leaves them precious little room in which to exercise their own conscience.
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parakeet
There are rules and procedures in place for JC hearings, but they are often ignored by the JC members at will. There are no penalties in place for procedural violations.
The appeal process by the accused almost never is successful, so the whole proceeding is pretty much a kangaroo court. The JC is judge, jury, and executioner rolled into one, and the WTS is very reluctant to get themselves involved in any dispute.
This is why JWs who ask for advice on this forum regarding JCs are often told not to subject themselves to JC proceedings. The JC almost invariably have already made up their minds about the outcome. They just want the accused/condemned JW to sit before them and be forced to listen to their self-righteous tirade before kicking him out.
In spite of their pretensions to fair and impartial judgment, JCs are more like vigilantes intent on stamping out dissidence (real or perceived) in the congregations. -
DannyHaszard
Where does the 'power' come from that enables an arrogant elder body of flunky hacks to do something as foolhardy as piss off a known militant like Danny Haszard?
ANS- It's the sandbagging heavy-handed sleazy stonewalling tactics of the Watchtower legal department.They thought at the time 1992 pre-internet that no matter what the WTS legal would cover their asses.Rockland Massachusetts Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses elders took a calculated risk that i would 'disappear' and fade away as a homeless drunk living under a bridge.
Hello!
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Forscher
The way a JC usually works is that the accused is supposed to meet with the committee alone. The accused is not allowed to take notes on the proceedings (the Elders™ on the Judicial Committee™ can take notes, however), nor are they permitted to have someone there as moral support, neither are they permitted to call witnesses in their defense. The accusers are not there so that the defendant can refute the accusations.
The rules do require that the accusers give testimony in front of the accused and that the accused is allowed rebuttal interrogation. You will find that if you examine the "flock" book closely. However, that rule is pretty much ignored by local elders, especially if they've already decided to Df. The two-witness rule is also only followed if they've not already decided to Df or if an accusation of molestation is made (that will be because they've already called the WTBTS's legal department and been instructed to follow the rule). sincde no effective oversight on JC committees is in place (an examination of the rules for Appeals committees demonstrates that they have no real polwer to conteract the original committee), the JC can pretty much do whatever it wants.
Basically, the committee holds all the cards. The "flock" book is secret and the defendant is allowed no access to it. So the defendant has no idea what the rules are and cannot hold the committee to them. I once had an elder wave that book in my face and say "the Elder's manual says we can" when I challenged something they were doing. Later on I found out it didn't when I found it on the net. That is unfortunately the position that a rank-and-file witness finds himherself in when faced with a JC.
Respectfully
Forscher -
Joe Grundy
Many thanks for the replies and the info here.
They have reinforced to me that as an outsider, all the theoretical knowledge means very little compared to personal experience of having had to suffer this stuff.
For what it's worth, my opinion as an outsider is that the organisation is more corrupt, bullying and controlling than I had ever thought (and I had a low opinion of it to start with).
I can't think of anything I can offer to counter it (but if anyone else can, let me know) - all I can offer are my thoughts, support and best wishes to anyone suffering.
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The Quiet One
Bttt