by DannyBloem 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
The JW's have some teaching about the spirit that it is the kind of unknow life force/engerie that was given to Adam and all of us.
I think that they teach that if this life force is taken away, we die instantly.
of course we die when we have no more energie, but energie does come from food, not from something unknown.
What exactly is the society teaching about this, I never fully understood it.
Ad what does the bible really mean, whenit uses these words?
Danny
They liken the "life force" to electricity, and it is tied in with "Breathing" in some way.
They also say that the "life is in the blood"
When a person dies, the "life force" returns to Jehovah.
The life force contains no personality of the person.
This causes a problem with the JW's resurrection beliefs in that it means that only a clone copy with replicated memories will be re-created as there is nothing unique to transfer from the orignal person.
These are comments I am just typing from the top of my head right now. I am sure that others here will be able to provide exact references concerning these beliefs in the JW literature.
--VM44
VM44... Liked your idea, that if the life force is without personality, then where would the personality, the memories be? Could they be in the Soul...? And God takes the soul to himselft until the ressurection? And the lifeforce still be an impersonality life force?
Hi Danny,
The ancient conceptions of "life" were of course very different from modern biology. By "translating" them with modern scientific-sounding words like "energy" or "life force" the WT gives the wrong impression that they can still stand as alternative biological descriptions. But afaik there is nothing that resembles "life force" in modern biology.
The use of the Hebrew ruach (and the Greek pneuma in a Jewish context) actually points to the phenomenon of breath (note that both words also mean "wind") as "essential" to "life" (chayyim). Consequently plants are usually not described as "living" -- unlike earthly animals or even fish, they had nothing observable then which could be construed as similar to "breath".
In the OT the "breath" is not connected to a physical element like "air," not to mention "oxygen," but to the lifegiving divine. The continuity between divine and animal ruach is remarkably expressed in Psalm 104:29f (a text directly inspired from the Egyptian Hymn to Atum, http://touregypt.net/hymntoaten.htm):
When you hide your face, they are dismayed;
when you take away their ruach, they die
and return to their dust.
When you send forth your ruach, they are created;
and you renew the face of the ground.
Compare in the Hymn to Atum:
Creator of seed in women,
Thou who makest fluid into man,
Who maintainest the son in the womb of his mother,
Who soothest him with that which stills his weeping,
Thou nurse (even) in the womb,
Who givest breath to sustain all that he has made!
When he descends from the womb to breathe
On the day when he is born,
Thou openest his mouth completely,
Thou suppliest his necessities.
When the chick in the egg speaks within the shell,
Thou givest him breath within it to maintain him.
When thou hast made him his fulfillment within the egg, to break it,
He comes forth from the egg to speak at his completed (time);
He walks upon his legs when he comes forth from it.
I find jw theology inconsistent with God's spirit being a 'thing' but demons are for real
jws believe demons are person, but not the holy spirit ?
Thank you Narkissos for your answer,
The ancient conceptions of "life" were of course very different from modern biology. By "translating" them with modern scientific-sounding words like "energy" or "life force" the WT gives the wrong impression that they can still stand as alternative biological descriptions. But afaik there is nothing that resembles "life force" in modern biology. The use of the Hebrew ruach (and the Greek pneuma in a Jewish context) actually points to the phenomenon of breath (note that both words also mean "wind") as "essential" to "life" (chayyim). Consequently plants are usually not described as "living" -- unlike earthly animals or even fish, they had nothing observable then which could be construed as similar to "breath".
yes, that is how I understand the meaning of these verses also. It is quite clear, IMHO.
But the WT has some different explanation, an explanation that is as thin as air.
It is this explanation that I do not understand.
But then I guess, they just do not explain it fully, so it there explanation can not be fully understood.
They give the impression that it is like electricity. Which is of course a very wrong illustration.
What I want to know is how exactly they see this point.
In the OT the "breath" is not connected to a physical element like "air," not to mention "oxygen," but to the lifegiving divine. The continuity between divine and animal ruach is remarkably expressed in Psalm 104:29f (a text directly inspired from the Egyptian Hymn to Atum, http://touregypt.net/hymntoaten.htm):
This is very interesting. Maybe also nice for a new topic on comparissions of bible with other archelogical texts. The way they see it does not differ too much from surrounding nations then. It is also an understandable though in the light of these days. Danny
Thank you VM44,
They liken the "life force" to electricity, and it is tied in with "Breathing" in some way.
we still use the base greek word in some of out words today, for air-tools.
They also say that the "life is in the blood" When a person dies, the "life force" returns to Jehovah. The life force contains no personality of the person.
This is how I remember it too.
This causes a problem with the JW's resurrection beliefs in that it means that only a clone copy with replicated memories will be re-created as there is nothing unique to transfer from the orignal person.
I do not see why this is a problem
These are comments I am just typing from the top of my head right now. I am sure that others here will be able to provide exact references concerning these beliefs in the JW literature.
thank you
A paduan,
I find jw theology inconsistent with God's spirit being a 'thing' but demons are for realjws believe demons are person, but not the holy spirit ?
the spirit we talking about with this words is not the holy spirit, not spiritual creatures. Many things can be described as spirits, but they do not all have to exists. I do not see any inconsistency. Danny
From the Insight book, article "Spirit":
Breath; Breath of Life; Life-Force. The account of the creation of man states that God formed man from the dust of the ground and proceeded to "blow [form of na·phach´] into his nostrils the breath [form of nesha·mah´] of life, and the man came to be a living soul [ne´phesh]." (Ge 2:7; see SOUL.) Ne´phesh may be translated literally as "a breather," that is, "a breathing creature," either human or animal. Nesha·mah´ is, in fact, used to mean "breathing thing [or creature]" and as such is used as a virtual synonym of ne´phesh, "soul." (Compare De 20:16; Jos 10:39, 40; 11:11; 1Ki 15:29.) The record at Genesis 2:7 uses nesha·mah´ in describing God’s causing Adam’s body to have life so that the man became "a living soul." Other texts, however, show that more was involved than simple breathing of air, that is, more than the mere introduction of air into the lungs and its expulsion therefrom. Thus, at Genesis 7:22, in describing the destruction of human and animal life outside the ark at the time of the Flood, we read: "Everything in which the breath [form of nesha·mah´] of the force [or, "spirit" (ru´ach)] of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died." Nesha·mah´, "breath," is thus directly associated or linked with ru´ach, which here describes [says who?] the spirit, or life-force, that is active in all living creatures—human and animal souls.As the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. VI, p. 336) states: "Breath may be discerned only in movement [as in the movement of the chest or the expanding of the nostrils], and it is also a sign, condition and agent of life, which seems to be esp[ecially] tied up with breathing." Hence, the nesha·mah´, or "breath," is both the product of the ru´ach, or life-force, and also a principal means of sustaining that life-force in living creatures. It is known from scientific studies, for example, that life [by which definition?] is present in every single cell of the body’s one hundred trillion cells and that, while thousands of millions of cells die each minute, constant reproduction of new living cells goes on. The life-force active in all the living cells is dependent upon the oxygen that breathing brings into the body, which oxygen is transported to all the cells by the bloodstream. Without oxygen some cells begin to die after several minutes, others after a longer period. While a person can go without breathing for a few minutes and still survive, without the life-force in his cells he is dead beyond all human ability to revive him. The Hebrew Scriptures, inspired by man’s Designer and Creator, evidently use ru´ach to denote this vital force that is the very principle of life, and nesha·mah´ to represent the breathing that sustains it.
Because breathing is so inseparably connected with life, nesha·mah´ and ru´ach are used in clear parallel in various texts. Job voiced his determination to avoid unrighteousness "while my breath [form of nesha·mah´] is yet whole within me, and the spirit [weru´ach] of God is in my nostrils." (Job 27:3-5) Elihu said: "If that one’s spirit [form of ru´ach] and breath [form of nesha·mah´] he [God] gathers to himself, all flesh will expire [that is, "breathe out"] together, and earthling man himself will return to the very dust." (Job 34:14, 15) Similarly, Psalm 104:29 says of earth’s creatures, human and animal: "If you [God] take away their spirit, they expire, and back to their dust they go." At Isaiah 42:5 Jehovah is spoken of as "the One laying out the earth and its produce, the One giving breath to the people on it, and spirit to those walking in it." The breath (nesha·mah´) sustains their existence; the spirit (ru´ach) energizes and is the life-force that enables man to be an animated creature, to move, walk, be actively alive. (Compare Ac 17:28.) He is not like the lifeless, breathless, inanimate idols of human fabrication.—Ps 135:15, 17; Jer 10:14; 51:17; Hab 2:19.
While nesha·mah´ (breath) and ru´ach (spirit; active force; life-force) are sometimes used in a parallel sense, they are not identical. True, the "spirit," or ru´ach, is at times spoken of as though it were the respiration (nesha·mah´) itself, but this seems to be simply because breathing is the prime visible evidence of the life-force in one’s body.—Job 9:18; 19:17; 27:3.
Thus at Ezekiel 37:1-10 the symbolic vision of the valley of dry bones is presented, the bones coming together, becoming covered with sinews, flesh, and skin, but "as regards breath [weru´ach], there was none in them." Ezekiel was told to prophesy to "the wind [ha·ru´ach]," saying, "From the four winds [form of ru´ach] come in, O wind, and blow upon these killed people, that they may come to life." The reference to the four winds shows that wind is the appropriate rendering for ru´ach in this case. However, when such "wind," which is simply air in motion, entered the nostrils of the dead persons of the vision, it became "breath," which is also air in motion. Thus, the rendering of ru´ach as "breath" at this point of the account (vs 10) is also more appropriate than "spirit" or "life-force." Ezekiel also would be able to see the bodies begin to breathe, even though he could not see the life-force, or spirit, energizing their bodies. As verses 11-14 show, this vision was symbolic of a spiritual (not physical) revivification of the people of Israel who were for a time in a spiritually dead state due to their Babylonian exile. Since they were already physically alive and breathing, it is logical to render ru´ach as "spirit" in verse 14, where God states that he will put ‘his spirit’ in his people so that they would become alive, spiritually speaking.
A similar symbolic vision is given at Revelation chapter 11. The picture is presented of "two witnesses" who are killed and whose corpses are allowed to lie on the street for three and a half days. Then "spirit [or breath, pneu´ma] of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet." (Re 11:1-11) This vision again draws on a physical reality to illustrate a spiritual revivification. It also shows that the Greek pneu´ma, like the Hebrew ru´ach, may represent the life-giving force from God that animates the human soul or person. As James 2:26 states: "The body without spirit [pneu´ma·tos] is dead."—Int.
Therefore, when God created man in Eden and blew into his nostrils "the breath [form of nesha·mah´] of life," it is evident that, in addition to filling the man’s lungs with air, God caused the life-force, or spirit (ru´ach), to vitalize all the cells in Adam’s body.—Ge 2:7; compare Ps 104:30; Ac 17:25.
This life-force is passed on from parents to offspring through conception. Since Jehovah was the original Source of this life-force for man, and the Author of the procreation process, one’s life can properly be attributed to Him, though received not directly but indirectly through one’s parents.—Compare Job 10:9-12; Ps 139:13-16; Ec 11:5.
It is quite obvious from this article's own scriptural quotations that the distinction between "breath" and "spirit" rests on nothing and that neshamah and ruach are used interchangeably in Biblical Hebrew. What we have is constructions (Genesis 7) or parallelisms of synonyms. If the WT did not posit a strict (and consistent) difference in meaning between them in the first place it would not need to resort to acrobatic explanations as to why one is supposedly used instead of the other.
