Never Forget, Religion is a Hole (page 2)

hopelesslystained

I completly agree Gregor. The other holes mentioned mostly take your money. Religion takes the soul and beats it into submission with fear.

Double Edge

hmmm, a little GENERALIZING don't you think?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (King James Version)

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Legolas

Never Forget, Religion is a Hole

Religion IS the BLACKEST of holes!

NEVER FORGET THAT!

Not sure what your point is, Double edge. Generalizing? As far as quoting 1 Thess. I not sure I get the application. Of course, with me, you might as well quote last Sundays Dilbert strip. I spent about 30 years of my life with little short, snappy Bible quotes being used to jerk me around. I'm over that.

JamesThomas

Religion, is only thoughts. It is the mind which digs a hole within itself.

alt

j

bebu

Religion is organized superstition. It packages up all the answers to lifes perplexing questions and gives them to you on a platter, no muss no fuss, just have "faith" and, very important, try to act like a sheep. Sheep don't even know or care if they're in a hole.

Obviously our experiences have been very different. I have never felt unable to ask questions, never felt that faith meant forced silence, never felt threatened to act like a sheep--"or else...". And I would certainly care to know if I were in a hole. (Of course, I have never been a JW, either. Just a Christian.)

That is also probably why DE wrote that bit about generalizing. There are plenty of debates and discussions going on about so many things in Christian arenas (universities, journals, periodicals). Scratch deeper than Pat Robertson or whoever else usually grabs headlines. Read Christianity Today, for example, and find yourself surprised. People can be articulate, thoughtful, and very un-sheeplike.

I do agree with you in another sense, though. I think religion is like a map, and spiritual experience is like the actual land portrayed by the map. A person whose only 'experience' about a place is with a map is missing out on reality! A person who wants to explore a country finds the map very useful for being able to get around without much trouble. Some maps are much better than others, obviously; and often one can get around quite well without one. If I ever had to choose between simply having a map and taking a "mapless" trip to a country, I'd surely choose to dare explore without a map.

bebu

Gregor

Thanks for you input Bebu. Yes, religion can provide a map. On another thread recently the point was discussed that for some people, getting religion, any religion, is a life saver for them. I know of examples where this was a fact.

My contention is that religion does not hold an exclusive on the basic principles, or guidelines, of living a fulfilling, useful and moral life. But many religions, JWs being one, ultimately claim that only their way is the correct way to live ones life. In other words, if Mother Teresa was alive at Armageddon she would be destroyed by Jehoober the same as Larry Flynt. Fundy Pentacostals are sure she is burning in hell right now, etc.

No, the real element of religion that attracts you and others to it is not the map, it is the supernatural aspect of it. You are a Christian. Many atheists live as morally 'good' as you do. But the real difference is they don't buy the "man sinned, God came to earth through Marys womb, got himself crucified (had to shed blood, part of the deal) to satisfy (pay) himself (or his father?) for the 4000 yr old offense Adam committed, then only be dead less than three days, go back up to heaven, then set back and watch to see how many of his children would figure out and accept all this so he could reward them with either (here it gets into different religions franchise technicalities) life in heaven after they go ahead and die a miserable death, or get to live forever as living breathing eating pooping creatures after He kills off the dummies that didn't get it figured out or maybe they just go to hell and burn in torment forever. etc etc etc.

You call it faith, I call it gullibility. No problem, we can still be friends!

bebu

Hi Gregor,

I'd be very lonely if I couldn't be friends with people who didn't believe like me--especially on THIS board --I'd have to be a masochist!

I agree that there are plenty of very nice people who are not Christians, who live as morally (and moreso!) than I think is best. The interesting thing to me is why people choose to act however they do. This points to preferences and beliefs, and I think this level is more intriguing than a surface competition of "Who is 'better'", with everyone competing (and losing). Even Mother Theresa went to confession weekly.

Your overview of Christian beliefs sound extremely fundamentalist, and I detect a JW flavor in it in places, too. Contrast that to the apostles creed, which is pretty bare-bones:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. A MEN .

It makes me think how the council in Jerusalem didn't want to turn grace into another form of legalism, when it sent its recommendations to the new gentile churches. The directives were just a handful. Likewise, this creed does not mention Adam & Eve, 4000 years, Christ destroying "dummies" who couldn't figure this all out, etc. It does not even mention believing in Scripture, or believing in the trinity per se! Not that I hold those to be unimportant, but their absence creates spaces for unity between those who are coming from different places on these issues. They are not micro-defined like fundamentalists or the WTS like to make things. Faith can be broad in places.

You call it gullibility. I call it grace. Yes, we can be friends, but without mutual respect any friendship will not last long.

bebu

greendawn

I can see your point as applied to the JWs they are a whorish daughter of Babylon because they demand a lot from their members but as an org they have obligations towards their members which they completely ignore eg charitable works to help out loyal members. In addition they lie profusely and hide from their members important truths.

Gregor

Honestly, Bebu, if you compare my thumbnail sketch of the Christian dogma with the apostles creed, other than my irreverent phraseology, it is almost identical. So, back to what I said. It is really not the "map" of how to live ones life that draws people to Christianity as much as it is the supernatural belief in this entire ransom sacrifice scenario. By the way, we haven't even mentioned the Satan character in all this.

Respect? Of course I respect your belief. But I don't believe it and that's what we're discussing here. I have been to this point in the conversation before and this is where rationality leaves the discussion and we get to the "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it!" phase. Fine. But, remember, no matter how fervently you and millions of others believe, you cannot produce enough proof to offset the weight of. a small bit of goosedown. Faith, indeed.

Never Forget, Religion is a Hole

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (King James Version)

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