Scriptures You Will Not Hear at the 09-07-06 Church Sermon.

by scout575 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

XJW4EVR

a Christian within the JW branch of Christianity

Most of Christianity does not view JWs as a branch of Christianity since JW's deny the basic tenents of the Christian faith. Namely, the Trinity, the Diety of Jesus, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, justification by grace though faith apart from works, the Diety & personhood of the Holy Spirit.
So again, I really don't think you know what you are talking about, since this is now the second error you have made in describing Christianity.
So how about instead of Deputy Dog researching the "testimonies" of ex-Christians, maybe you should try and truly learn what Christians believe instead of posting these strawmen fallacies in the classic JW style.
Deputy Dog

Scout
Deputy Dog: The testimonies that I refer to do include how the authors became Christians. If you like, I would be happy to refer you to a specific account on an ex-Christian website?

Please research their testimonies ( including the parts about how they became Christians ), and see for yourself.
As I said before, I have seen those "testimonies" and reading them won't tell me how You became a Christian.
When I refer to having been a Christian myself, I'm referring to having been a Christian within the JW branch of Christianity. For many years I was thrilled to have the 'truth', and then, just like the posters on 'ex-Christian.net', my faith in the Bible withered away until I knew that I could no longer bear the label of 'Christian'.
Even the JWs don't refer to themselves as a "branch" of Christianity, which makes me wonder about your story, so far. I'm still waiting for the answer to my question, How did YOU become a Christian? Did the WT turn you into one? From your comments it looks like you called yourself a Christian for a while (that seems to be how the JWs think you become one), until you got tired of the WT JW crap. This would make you an EX-JW. So if you don't know how you became a Christian, I will continue to insist that there is no such thing as an EX-Christian.
A Paduan

I will continue to insist that there is no such thing as an EX-Christian.

I'm not sure that Scout may get what your meaning by that
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Scout does not warn ex-jws about jwism, jws about jwism, or christians about christianity.. Rather, he specifically and continuously writes TO JWS CONSIDERING CHRISTIANITY.
I don't believe Scout is an EX..., and still has the us (jw) and them (christians) whole thing going - urging jws not to enter 'christianity' as a whole - one can only consider that Scout considers them better off being jws.
scout575

EXJW4EVR: My weekly postings are not strawmen fallacies but are collections of texts from the NT that add to my conviction that the NT is the work of man, rather than God. I retrain an appreciation for it, and believe that it contains inspiring and helpful passages. I was a studious JW, and read the Bible eagerly for many years, and feel that it has helped me greatly.
I am very familiar with the teachings of the various other branches of Christianity, as I listen to a daily radio sermon, preached by Clergymen and Clergywomen from all the main Christian denominations here in England. I have been listening to these sermons with interest for many years. I wonder whether many Christians are equally familiar with the sentiments of former Christians.
DEPUTY DOG: Yes, you're right in saying that JWs wouldn't describe themselves as a branch of Christianity. Now being an atheist, I would describe them as such. For me now, anyone who believes the NT's supernatural claims about Jesus and follows what he or she believes to be his teachings is a Christian. By this criteria, I was a Christian for many years.
I became a Christian ( JW style ) in the normal way, ie studied the Bible, went to Christian meetings, prayed to God, associated with other Christians, and lived up to NT demands, and became entirely convinced that Christianity was true, and that I had a genuine relationship with God. I have to say that I delighted in that 'relationship'.
I am aware that as JWs don't believe in the trinity etc, many other Christians don't regard them as 'true' Christians, but to me this is all a matter of differing interpretations of deeply ambiguous ancient text. I don't believe that there is one correct way of interpreting the Bible, as there are contradictory views expressed within the Bible itself; for most doctrines that can be extracted from the Bible, verses can be found that contradict those doctrines.
With regard to whether a 'true' Christian can become disillusioned with 'true' Christianity and leave, you may find it helpful to go to,'Leaving Christianity', and then click on, 'Feedback discussions', and then read the author's debate with a 'true' Christian called Tammy D. Sundby. The author's points are very interesting.
Deputy Dog

Scout I'm starting to think you have never been a JW, you don't seem to know what they teach.
DEPUTY DOG: Yes, you're right in saying that JWs wouldn't describe themselves as a branch of Christianity. Now being an atheist, I would describe them as such. For me now, anyone who believes the NT's supernatural claims about Jesus and follows what he or she believes to be his teachings is a Christian. By this criteria, I was a Christian for many years.
JWs don't believe "the NT's supernatural claims about Jesus", they believe He was just a man. So by this "criteria" the JWs are not Christians
I became a Christian ( JW style ) in the normal way, ie studied the Bible, went to Christian meetings, prayed to God, associated with other Christians, and lived up to NT demands, and became entirely convinced that Christianity was true,
That is not the way to become a Christian in any church I have ever attended, nor is this what the bible teaches. Only JWs would think this could make them a Christian. Do you really think this is "the normal way"? Tell me, how did doing all these things make you a Christian?
...and that I had a genuine relationship with God. I have to say that I delighted in that 'relationship'.
Only the anointed would make that claim. You only had a relationship with the slave.
With regard to whether a 'true' Christian can become disillusioned with 'true' Christianity and leave, you may find it helpful to go to,'Leaving Christianity', and then click on, 'Feedback discussions', and then read the author's debate with a 'true' Christian called Tammy D. Sundby. The author's points are very interesting.
I'm finding this thread very interesting.
XJW4EVR

My weekly postings are not strawmen fallacies but are collections of texts from the NT that add to my conviction that the NT is the work of man, rather than God. I retrain an appreciation for it, and believe that it contains inspiring and helpful passages. I was a studious JW, and read the Bible eagerly for many years, and feel that it has helped me greatly.
Yes, they are strawmen. They are Bible text ripped from their context, which is the turned into your pretext for your "conviction that the NT is the work of man..." yadda, blah, etc.
I am very familiar with the teachings of the various other branches of Christianity, as I listen to a daily radio sermon, preached by Clergymen and Clergywomen from all the main Christian denominations here in England. I have been listening to these sermons with interest for many years. I wonder whether many Christians are equally familiar with the sentiments of former Christians.
As far as litening to "Clergymen & Clergywomen" that doesn't impress me, because I don't know who they are or what they are actually teaching. Perhaps you could educate me by posting links to their websites. Besides that statement is merely pleading to a higher authority. Unless I know who these radio preachers are and why they believe what they teach. Based on what you have posted here, I am not impressed. As an aside, I find it interesting that you don't reveal your "sources" nor have you recounted who you left the J-Dubs.
Secondly, just because you listen to some "Christian" radio preachers doesn't mean that you have been educated. Many teachers have their own biases on certain doctrines. One that I can think of right off the top of my head is John MacArthur. He is pastor of a megachurch here in Los Angeles and president of Masters College & Seminary. He was raised by an AoG evangelist, but is one of the most visicous cessationists on the radio now.
I have spoken with many people, and read many books by "former Christians" perhaps the most famous of the "former Christians I have read was Charles Templeton who wrote Farewell to God. I thought many of his objections to God were well thought out, but in the end he seemed to have had his expectations failed. This is the biggest cause of falling away that I have found, and was one of the chief reasons why I fell away from God for nearly five years.
scout575

Deputy Dog: My reason for posting on this site is not to go into the various interpretational and methodological differences between JWs and other Christian churches. That is of no interest to me these days. My reason for posting is to try to help JW lurkers to no longer remain under the spell of the Bible.
We all know about the regret that many ex-JWs feel about having been in the 'truth'; and of those that I've come across who have remained religious, most have joined evangelical/charismatic churches. Having become familiar with the sentiments of many ex-Christians, I see the same sense of deep regret about having been an evangelical/charismatic Christian, as I see among many ex-JWs.
Having been a JW for many years and having disassociated myself only last September, I retain a deep fondness for my 'old comrades', and don't want to see exiting Witnesses join another church whereby they will remain in thrall to the Bible, and very likely spend years as an evangelical Christian, only to later leave and feel the same sense of regret ( or even more so because of having made the same mistake twice ), that they felt upon becoming disillusioned with JWs. I am convinced that JW lurkers should 'bite the bullet', and leave the organization, but without joining another Bible-based organization.
Sad emo

"But now I have written unto you NOT TO KEEP COMPANY, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one NO NOT TO EAT." ( 1 Corinthians 5:11 )

I agree with Scout on this one (lol!!!). If you read in context, Paul doesn't ban believers from associating with the immoral of the world, only those who claimed to be believers, which suggests within and outside the congregation. I suspect it may have had something to do with the expected imminent return of Christ PLUS to prevent infiltration by certain Gnostic sects who had the body and spirit so far separated that they believed it didn't matter what you did in the physical, your spirit was still saved. It was a need to maintain purity of belief and morals within the congregation.
"A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition REJECT." ( Titus 3:10 )
In context, Paul was writing to a fellow elder with instructions. Here he seems to be instructing Titus to watch out for the 'Judaisers' - note in the verses prior to this that he refers to those concerned with the law and genealogies - the ability to prove that you had pure lineage back to Abraham was very important to a Jew. Perhaps there were some believers around preaching 'salvation ONLY to the Jews'? Of course you wouldn't want them turning up in a Gentile congregation (Titus was on Crete) saying you're not saved because you're not a Jew!
"If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, RECEIVE HIM NOT into your house, NEITHER BID HIM GOD SPEED: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his EVIL DEEDS." ( 2 John 10,11 )
I'm referring to some notes I found scribbled in a NWT I acquired now!! They wrote something about wishing someone God speed meaning wishing them salvation - which seems a bit illogical to me, how can we NOT want someone to be saved?
In context, the letter was written to counter the Gnostics again so I understand the need to keep wrong teaching out so close to the expected return of Christ but I do have a problem with this one.
This third Scripture is the only one I'd call tragic because I just don't understand the logic behind it.
On the other debate which unfortunately seems to be raging here, I believe Scout IS an EX-witness, think about it - would he be 'dissing' Scripture if he was still active? And on an 'apostate' site? That's not going to win many back to 'the Truth' is it? I think sometimes we can just misread/misinterpret what another poster is trying to say.
Deputy Dog

Scout I know what your reason for posting is, you took the WTs word about the bible and got burned, now you want EX-JWs to take your word about the bible so that if you get burned again you will have company. Using your reasoning, concerning the verses you posted, the church should welcome the Watchtower's pedophiles with open arms and no questions. As for being an EX-Christian, is that like being EX-human?
Having been a JW for many years and having disassociated myself only last September, I retain a deep fondness for my 'old comrades', and don't want to see exiting Witnesses join another church whereby they will remain in thrall to the Bible, and very likely spend years as an evangelical Christian, only to later leave and feel the same sense of regret ( or even more so because of having made the same mistake twice ), that they felt upon becoming disillusioned with JWs. I am convinced that JW lurkers should 'bite the bullet', and leave the organization, but without joining another Bible-based organization.
Joining something, anything, won't make you a Christian. That's the problem with the JWs, they think that being in an "organization" will make them a Christian. I pray that God reveals to you what a real Christian is, so you can see how wrong you are.

Scriptures You Will Not Hear at the 09-07-06 Church Sermon.

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