by LovesDubs 11 Replies latest jw friends
Somewhere in my head I recall someone saying that since there was NO PROOF OR RECORD OF THEM BEING BAPTISED that the so-called (the JWs word) "Christians" who died in the lion's pit were therefore not of the 144,000!!!
How do the JWs justify there not being 144,000 TRUE Christians from 33CE to 1900???
Because they didn't go door to door? Heck if I know, I always have gotten a different answer when asking that one. Wish I would have kept a record for the many different answers my jw has given.
In fact their take is that there were genuine Christians from 33 AD to around 100 AD when the last apostle died at which instant the church suddenly went apostate (in fact this is a totally unhistorical and erroneous idea) and therefore all its members became worthless to God through being apostate. It's the ultimate and most vicious insult for those that suffered attrocious torture and death for the sake of Christ and the faith.
Even if we are to argue that some were no good most of them were perfectly genuine Christians at least until Constantine's days.
The book of Acts mentions at least 100,000 people saved, and that was only the beginning growth of Christianity. Estimates have it that there were at least 250,000 Jews in the early church, not counting thousands of Gentiles. Also there were 250,000 martyrs, who would surely be included in the 144,000. (In the WT book Finished Mystery, 1917, Charles Russell said there were 861,000 martyrs.)How could there possibly be any openings left when Charles Russell came on the scene, if this teaching of only 144,000 going to heaven is to be presumed true?
Just my thought on the subject.
I have read that the Romans martyred about five MILLION early Christians. If only 3 out of 100 of them were anointed all the heavenly time-share condos would have been sold long before CTR began his gig. If I recall correctly, the peak number of Memorial partakers in JW history was just under 60,000 - did they really think that after 18 centuries, one third of the job openings had not been filled? Yes, apparently they did. Chauvinism is a wonderful thing.
Three comments from the WTS in 1952, 1972, 1999, showing how they speak out of both sides of their mouth.
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w99 2/1 p. 17 par. 16 Our Treasure in Earthen Vessels ***In the 1930’s the number of "those called and chosen and faithful," the 144,000, appeared to be filled. (Revelation 17:14; see box on page 19.) We do not know how many of the anointed were gathered in the first century and from among the "weeds" during the dark centuries of Christendom’s great apostasy. But in 1935 there was a worldwide total of 52,465 publishers, out of a peak of 56,153, who indicated their heavenly hope by partaking of the Memorial emblems.
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w52 1/15 p. 62 Questions From Readers ***?
According to the article "Hated for His Name" in the September 1, 1951, Watchtower, hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the "ten persecutions" starting in Nero’s time, 144,000 dying in Egypt alone during one of the persecutions. How can this be harmonized with the Scriptural limitation of 144,000 placed on the number being in Christ’s body, and which position was the only one open to Christians during those centuries?—J.A., Dominican Republic.The article did not class with any finality the individuals that died during these persecutions, but spoke of the results in a general way. Note that a key qualification was made in the case referred to in the question: "In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works." The victims are identified as "professed Christians", not Christians in fact. Many of those persons might have been caught in the wave of persecution, but may never have actually preached the truth or followed in Jesus’ footsteps, being only professed Christians. They knew the world they lived in was rotten and they were listening to the message of the Christians and willing to die for it even though not in line for the high calling in Christ Jesus. Many professed Christians today might be willing to die for their faith, but still not be Jesus’ footstep followers and meeting the Scriptural requirements for such.
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w72 7/1 pp. 415-416 Questions From Readers ***?
Large numbers of Christians are said to have been put to death during the Roman persecution in the first few centuries of the Common Era. How, then, is it possible for thousands in this century to have been called to become part of the body of Christ composed of only 144,000 persons?—U.S.A.There are historical indications that many Christians were bitterly persecuted, even killed, in the first few centuries. However, it should be remembered that, in itself, a martyr’s death did not give a person merit before Jehovah God nor did it guarantee membership in the heavenly kingdom. Many persons, even in recent times, have been willing to die for a cause, religious or otherwise. A person’s claiming to be a Christian and even dying for his belief does not in itself mean that he is an approved servant of Jehovah God. As the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "If I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all." (1 Cor. 13:3) It is not death, but faithfulness to the very death, that determines whether an individual will receive "the crown of life."—Rev. 2:10.
Thus the fact that today there is still a remnant of the 144,000 on earth would show that down to this twentieth century fewer than 144,000 finished their earthly course in faithfulness.
While some persons may be inclined to think that more persons must surely have been involved even as far back as the early centuries of the Common Era, actual proof to this effect is completely lacking. Today it is impossible even to establish how many persons were killed, much less the number of those who proved faithful to death. "We have practically but few facts to go upon," writes Frederick John Foakes-Jackson in the book History of Christianity in the Light of Modern Knowledge. He further states: "The testimony to the persecution by Nero is recorded by two Roman historians, Tacitus and Suetonius, both of whom were very young when it occurred, and wrote in mature life. There is no contemporary Christian document describing it, though it may be alluded to in the book of Revelation. . . . Tertullian at the end of the second century is our authority that Nero and Domitian, because they were the two worst emperors in the first centuries, persecuted the Christians." Early in the third century C.E., Origen (a Christian writer and teacher) observed: "There have been but a few now and again, easily counted, who have died for the Christian religion."
Much that has been written about Christian martyrs is embellished by tradition and therefore unreliable. For example, the martyrdom of Polycarp of the second century C.E. is described in Fox’s Book of Martyrs as follows: "He was . . . bound to a stake, and the faggots with which he was surrounded set on fire, but when it became so hot that the soldiers were compelled to retire, he continued praying and singing praises to God for a long time. The flames raged with great violence, but still his body remained unconsumed, and shone like burnished gold. It is also said, that a grateful odour like that of myrrh, arose from the fire, which so much astonished the spectators, that many of them were by that means converted to Christianity. His executioners finding it impossible to put him to death by fire, thrust a spear into his side, from which the blood flowed in such a quantity, as to extinguish the flame. His body was then consumed to ashes, by order of the proconsul lest his followers should make it an object of adoration."
Whatever the source of Fox’s information, manifestly little of this account is truly historical. Nevertheless, if the allusion to the adoration of the remains of Polycarp is to be viewed as indicating the existence of relic worship among professed Christians of the second century C.E., this would be additional evidence that many at that time were not faithful worshipers of Jehovah God. Christians were under command to "worship God," not relics. (Rev. 19:10) In fact, idolaters are among those specifically named in the Scriptures as unfit to inherit the Kingdom.—1 Cor. 6:9, 10.
"Nevertheless, if the allusion to the adoration of the remains of Polycarp is to be viewed as indicating the existence of relic worship among professed Christians of the second century C.E., this would be additional evidence that many at that time were not faithful worshipers of Jehovah God. Christians were under command to "worship God," not relics. (Rev. 19:10) In fact, idolaters are among those specifically named in the Scriptures as unfit to inherit the Kingdom.—1 Cor. 6:9, 10."
What a misleading lot, the early Christians did not worship relics they simply respected them and it's understandable why they would, the martyrs had given their lives for the faith, they made the ultimate sacrifice often preceded by merciless torture. To them the saints had gone straight to heaven and more specifically next to the throne of God as the book of Revelation tells us.
In addition the early Christians did not worship jehovah and this name does not appear once in the Greek Scriptures, their faith and worship were Christ centred.
How do the JWs justify there not being 144,000 TRUE Christians from 33CE to 1900???
Because they didn't read the WATCHTOWER.
So the current WT explanation is that many of the "Christians" who were martyrs were already apostate - but this does not mean that there weren't anointed ones from the first century onward.
Russell and the early WTS could acknowledge that there were many more true Christians than just the 144,000 because the "great crowd" was acknowledged to be a secondary heavenly class. These were acknowledged to have been in line for the heavenly kingdom, but failed to fulfill their "covenant of sacrifice" in giving up the good things of earth. If might be difficult to understand how, then, they could have been martyrs - but the explanation was that these were people who had been forced by circumstances into giving up the earthly life rather than having self-sacrifice become a regular, daily practice. Their final martyrdom at the last minute did not qualify them to finally be of the 144,000.
"Thus the fact that today there is still a remnant of the 144,000 on earth would show that down to this twentieth century fewer than 144,000 finished their earthly course in faithfulness."
Thus the logic known as "Circular Logic" is put into play.......
