Nicodemus,
Nico,
Thanks for raising this point. Although in such times, our instinct is to wrap our arms around all the victims, the limitations on our resources imposed on even the wealthiest of us forces us to prioritize, and do a sort of ``triage.''
As a stone splashing in a pond, our largesse ripples outward, with the first circles enclosing our family, wives and children; next, we reach the next outer circle, our our friends and fellow believers; and if our circumstances permit, we then expend the balance of what's left indiscriminately, on whichever needy person or persons cross our path before we have exhausted our means to provide assistance.
A Different JW Viewpoint
by Nicodemus 26 Replies latest jw friends
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Room 215
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Billygoat
Nicodemus,
Thank you for sharing your heart! It's good to know there are still some good, kindhearted JW's around. But I still would like to hear your answer to AlanF's question:
Why do you stay with a religion that produces so many who hold opposite values?
Christian love,
Andi -
Bridgette
"attempts have been made in print recently to start the process of
reversing that mentality. They are but a start, and I dare say the message still gets
muddy and conflicted at times, but it is a start, and I applaud it, as does virtually every
thinking JW with whom I am in contact."
Your words and show of what appears to be genuine concern assure me even further that my original thread on what I heard JW's say is accomplishing its mission.My original thread was not presented as a scientific hypothesis, it was observations. It was made out of the human emotion of sadness and the desire to illicit a human response from JW (which, again, I can't reiterate enough--it did! adn I'm truly happy--I NOW KNOW dogma will not rule the day--you can't squash the human spirit of love. :) Anyway, the minute I showed emotion AND an admitted agenda, I threw out scientific method. I just wrote down a few honest quotes. Sorry it has disturbed so many, but I'm not sorry it's made them admit they are human and they care and love all humans no matter what religion they are. No, not sorry at all. Quite pleased actually. AND I am thrilled beyond belief that we are all here, and can express openly. When I was a witness, I could have never told people (esp. bros, [as a LOWLY sister], that they were displaying an unloving attitude)--so I love you all, glad you're here posting, offering opinions, calling me out, being.....*gasp* HUMAN!!! YEA!!! I feel connected to the witness community again, without the dogma!
Love and Peace....
Bridgette -
AlanF
Hello Nicodemus,
: I have to say that I find it ironic that some of the "conclusions" regarding Jehovah's Witnesses in response to these comments have come from intelligent individuals who are proponents of the scientific method, and requiring that arguments be supported by facts and figures.
There is no reasonable way to generate "facts and figures" about this by "the scientific method". This is one situation where the very asking of the right questions alienates the JW who is being questioned, or puts him on the alert so that he automatically hides or downplays the beliefs he knows are true but embarrassing. Answers will automatically be biased so as "to give a good witness". You know exactly what I'm talking about. As once-committed JWs, we all did it.
Most people on this board were once committed JWs and they know exactly how JWs think and act in private. I was raised a JW and I held the typical hardline JW view about many things like this until my late teens. Who do you think trained me, and other JWs, this way? Wasn't it the Society? Wasn't it the entire community of JWs in which I was raised?
JWs are trained to hide the truth about embarrassing beliefs. How does the Reasoning book instruct you to answer the accusation, "You people think you're the only ones who are going to be saved"? Most people who ask this question obviously have in mind "saved through Armageddon". Yet the book instructs you to pretend that a very different question was asked, and so it gives you the answer that many people who will be resurrected will also be saved. So the real question is never answered, and the JW is trained in how to do this.
It's the same with JWs and the question of being happy about the imminent death of six billion people versus their emotions about the recent death of a millionth that number. While almost all JWs will feel, or at least voice, loathing at these recent deaths when they view them with the immediacy of a TV picture, how do they really feel about them in private? "No big deal, and it's probably better that they died since now they have the hope of a resurrection" will be the most common view, even if unexpressed. The view of a lot of JWs as expressed on WOL is quite in line with this.
Of course, this does not mean that all JWs are callous toward death. It simply means that a large fraction have succumbed to the training of the Watchtower Society. As other posters have pointed out, we ex-JWs don't need any polls of WOL types -- we've experienced the attitude firsthand. Your views, while totally commendable, are simply not representative of the majority of JWs. I've observed that in your postings for years.
So it isn't just that the Society has somewhat contributed to the lousy attitude of many JWs -- it has defined their attitude. It's the same with how disfellowshipped people are treated. While the JW-media website claims that people who merely leave are not shunned, and that shunning doesn't break up family relationships, you know perfectly well that these claims are disgustingly false. JWs who actually treat DF'd relatives nicely and according to this published stance are viewed as weak or even deserving of DF'ing themselves by the JW community at large, while JWs who take a hard line and completely shun such relatives are viewed as models to be emulated, even as heroes for "putting Jehovah first".
While it's true that during part of the 1990s a few WT articles appeared that attempted to reverse the "us vs. them" attitude, virtually every time another article would appear a few months later that reversed the first one. This shows the way hardliners always seem to win out. A good example of this over an extended period is the question of disfellowshipping a woman who was raped and who supposedly didn't scream. A 1993 Awake! article reversed decades of a stupid policy that resulted in many women being unjustly DF'd. Lack of screaming was explicitly discounted as a reason for DF'ing, since any kind of rape is a violent crime and no one should be punished a 2nd time just for being a victim. Yet a 1998 Watchtower article contains a footnote that elders now use (on the advice of the Service Dept.) to reverse the 1993 policy. How much hardline teaching, then, has really been reversed?
Under Lloyd Barry during the 1990s, liberals in Bethel were able to get a number of "kinder, gentler" teachings and policies in place for awhile. Now that he's dead, the hardliners under Ted Jaracz are clearly taking over. Look at the hardline notions pushed at this summer's conventions, in recent KM's, in recent talks by COs and DOs. Who is winning here? The liberals or the hardliners? Based on your own recent experience, what kind of policies do you think are going to be put in place at the upcoming KM Schools? More liberal ones? Or more hardline ones?
Your own circle of friends may well share your kinder, more liberal views, but keep in mind that "birds of a feather flock together" and your circle is not representative of the JW community in general. How comfortable would you be in expressing your views to the JW community at large? How about to Ted Jaracz? How about to the hardliners you know are really in control of "God's organization"?
Again, Nicodemus, why do you stay with a religion that produces so many who hold values opposite to yours?
AlanF
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Nicodemus
Bridgette
My comments were not directed at any individual in particular, simply a statement regarding what I believe to be the fallacy of drawing large-scale conclusions from a small-scale sample, or of a blanket “categorization” of people of any form. I deplore it when some of my own brothers and sisters make blanket categorizations of others, and neither do I support such with respect to Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I truly appreciate the kind comments you just made, and think I understand where you were coming from.
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Marvin Shilmer
Hi, Alan
Nicodemus, why do you stay with a religion that produces so many who hold values opposite to yours?
Nicodemus is more than capable for speaking for himself, but I wonder what you mean with this question?
Some who choose to remain associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses have entirely lost respect for the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, like me. Likely Nicodemus sees his values in other JWs he associates with, perhaps more than he sees, for instance, among local Presbyterians, Lutherans, Catholics, or Muslims or that matter. For this reason he may decide to remain in association with JWs yet not condoning specific WTS teachings he opposes. What of it? As long as his local congregation lets him do this, assuming it is true, then what is your question about, just clarification? People have all sorts of reasons for remaining where they are, at least for the time being.
Greetings Nicodemus,
As others have already commented, your loving sentiments are evident. More than others here seem to realize, and perhaps more than you want to talk about openly on this forum, I know your personal choices are loving, upright and entirely understandable.
On the matter of how our brotherhood reacts to these types of incidents, it is telling that there is so much hesitancy of how to pray about it from Kingdom Hall stages when we both know in private so many of our brothers will speak about how much they hurt for victims. What makes our brotherhood manifest this hesitancy from the Kingdom Hall stage? People do as they learn, including how they love and pray before an audience of peers.
What I want to know is, after the horror of Tuesday, how many Bethel decision makers were in line to donate blood for uses other than as whole red cells, whole white cells, whole platelets or whole plasma? (E.g., for its hemoglobin, albumin, or any and all other FORM of blood parts)
What a damn mess our governing body has made!
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Fredhall
Marvin,
Talking about messes. Look at the world. Did the JW's cause it? Not!!!
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dungbeetle
witnesses.net. And they may further recall that other Witnesses on that site disagreed with certain “narrow”, or what I’ll refer to as “fundamentalist” viewpoints they expressed>
No. dear...I went to my KH and posted what I saw and heard...and what about J.R. Brown's ridiculous PR statment...and what about the JW website? "We gave some people some water...".
Yeah, the truth hurts Nicodemus, and we've all been there. Attcking the mail carriers doesn't change the mail contents. Instead of trying to defend the Witnesses,(which can't be done) J.R. Brown, and the JW website, why don't you email/write/call the WT and WOL and GreatCrowd and tell them how BAD they are looking? Maybe they'll shape up and put on a front at LEAST and not make the JW's look so bad. My daughter, son-in-law, sister and brother and mother-in-law are all JW's and they will have to take the rap for this crap when they go door to door.
dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.
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Bridgette
"think I understand where you
were coming from." ~~Nicodemus
Aaahhh, understanding, now THAT, is what makes being here, posting here, and discussing all different viewpoints worthwhile. We're on a path of NOT embracing everything about others, but at least understanding where they come from--and THAT is a truly beautiful thing. imo :)
Thanks for helping me to understand your POV.
Peace,
Bridgette -
Nicodemus
AlanF and Andi,
I have responded to your questions on the following thread:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=11776&site=3