How Does the WT Explain this verse

by XBEHERE 49 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Fjtoth: What you just mentioned is part of the entire background for the trinity-doctrine, which is a doctrine developed to solve certain inconsistensies in the Bible (in addition to all the verses that in the NT refers to Jesus, while in the OT they refer to Yahweh, such as "the beginning and the end", etc). In Acts 2:24 you have: "And God raised him from the dead". In John you have:"19 In answer Jesus said to them: "Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

    Whether you like the trinity-doctrine or not (I`m assuming that you don`t), you can`t pick and choose verses when you want to create an overall doctrine. You have to take all of them into consideration. That is what they did, the church fathers that first formulated the trinity-doctrine. They can explain these inconsistensies. The WTS can not. (When saying "you" I don`t mean to pick a fight, I just couldn`t find a better way of formulating what I was trying to say).

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    Instead of letting this get into another all out battle over the trinity (which I'm sure that's exactly where it will go) let's just remember that this has to do with how the Watchtower worms its way around scripture and it's accepted meanings in very childish ways to accomplish their goals, no matte what the theology is. "Truth" at all costs.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    "All these sufferings, assuredly, he underwent for our sake, that we might be saved. And he suffered really, as he also really raised himself from the dead. It is not as some unbelievers say, who maintain that his suffering was not real. In reality, it is they that are not real. So will their end be as they believe: they will be bodiless and as phantoms. For myself, I know and believe that he was in the flesh even after the resurrection. And when he came to Peter and Peter's companions, he said to them: 'Here; feel me and see that I am not a bodiless ghost.' Immediately they touched him and, through this contact with his flesh and spirit, believed. For the same reason they despised death and, in fact, proved stronger than death" (Ignatius, Smyrnaeans 2:1-3:4).

  • renando_stimpy
    renando_stimpy

    One good way i've found to get them to think about it is this.. dealing with the resurrection body instead of who raised him,,

    If Jesus is a "Glorious Spirit Creature" shouldn't we be resurrected as spirits too?

    1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    Philippians 3:21 - Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    I haven't gotten a descent answer for these two passages..

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Hellrider,

    Somewhere you lost me. You said that a person "can`t pick and choose verses when you want to create an overall doctrine." It appears to me that you are guilty of what you accuse another of doing. You have one verse placed side by side with 22 verses, and your preference is to stick to the one and ignore the 22. I'd say that's picking and choosing.

    You also have bypassed the illustration "tijkmo" gave up above from Ezekiel 43:3. The Bible often credits agents of God with accomplishing what only God himself can do.

    I think it's important to understand what Jesus meant when he spoke of his "body" as God's temple. He did not say he is God. He said his body is God's temple. Biblically, a temple is a sanctuary or dwelling place for God. It is not God himself, but the place where he resides. The body of every Christian is such a temple, according to 1 Corinthians 3:16: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" The same point is made at 2 Corinthians 6:16, that "ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

    Just as Christ was raised from the dead, so his followers will be raised from the dead. Who does the raising? Is it God, or is it the person whose body is God's temple? I believe the answer is found at 1 Thessalonians 4:14: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."

    My appeal to anyone, trinitarian and non-trinitarian alike, is to do as you recommend: "You have to take all of them [passages that bear on a subject] into consideration." Don't let one verse have the final say. Take them all into consideration. I sincerely believe I tried to do that here.

    Frank

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Fjtoth:

    Hellrider,

    Somewhere you lost me. You said that a person "can`t pick and choose verses when you want to create an overall doctrine." It appears to me that you are guilty of what you accuse another of doing. You have one verse placed side by side with 22 verses, and your preference is to stick to the one and ignore the 22. I'd say that's picking and choosing.

    Yes, you have 22 passages that says that God raised him up. But then you have that one passage in which Jesus says:

    In John you have:"19 In answer Jesus said to them: "Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

    So, he says that after three days, he himself will raise his own body up! This is not a matter of quantity of verses saying that or the other, such as is the WTS-strategy on so many things, this is a matter of taking the whole Bible into consideration. Now, the anti-trinitarian view of the WTS chooses to emphasise the 20 verses saying God raised him up, and ignore (which basically is the same as saying that Jesus lied) or twist the one passage that says he raised himself up.

    The other option is that of the trinitarian view: Within this view, all of the verses, the 20 saying God raised him up as well as that one that says he himself raised him up, is true. Because both Jesus Christ and the Father are God.

    The rest of your points are valid. But I think:

    I think it's important to understand what Jesus meant when he spoke of his "body" as God's temple. He did not say he is God. He said his body is God's temple. Biblically, a temple is a sanctuary or dwelling place for God. It is not God himself, but the place where he resides. The body of every Christian is such a temple, according to 1 Corinthians 3:16: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" The same point is made at 2 Corinthians 6:16, that "ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

    ...is stretching it a bit. Thomas said "My Lord and my God". There are other verses too. "They shall call him mighty God": I doubt Jesus here meant that his body was a Temple in which simply the spirit of God dwelled, when he said "destroy this Temple, and in three days I shall raise it up". And the point of Tijkmo about agents acting on Gods behalf, counts in the matter of JC, when he said that he himself would raise his body up.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    fjtoth

    Don't forget the Holy Spirit!

    Romans 8:11

    If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in YOU, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make YOUR mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in YOU.

    NWT

    Romans 8:11

    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    KJV

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Hellrider,

    This is not a matter of quantity of verses saying that or the other, such as is the WTS-strategy on so many things, this is a matter of taking the whole Bible into consideration.

    So, you're saying that the 22 verses are not part of "the whole Bible"?

    Now, the anti-trinitarian view of the WTS chooses to emphasise the 20 verses saying God raised him up, and ignore (which basically is the same as saying that Jesus lied) or twist the one passage that says he raised himself up.

    A person doesn't have to be a member of the "WTS" to notice that there is a certain emphasis when more than 20 verses say the same thing, and only one or two verses appear to contradict what they say. Why are you ignoring that fact? I'm not a JW, and I'm not using JW publications to show there is a contrast between those 20 some verses and the one that you have your attention focussed on. I haven't even used the JW Bible!

    You are putting words in my mouth when you suggest that I'm saying Jesus lied or that I am twisting your key text here. What I am saying is that you seem eager to ignore a basic fact about the Bible. There is such a thing as providential agency in the Scriptures. Many examples in addition to Ezekiel 43:3 show that God gives credit to his servants for things he himself accomplishes. Angels are frequently called Jehovah though they are not God himself. David is given credit for victories even though he was nowhere near the battlefield. You seem to want that factor to go away as though it doesn't exist.

    The other option is that of the trinitarian view:

    The Bible is explicitly and solidly clear that Jesus did not raise himself from the dead. It is also very plain when it states that God is the One who will raise Christians from the dead. Notice, however, what 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says, according to the New American Standard Bible: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

    We can force a very literal interpretation here, just as you've done with John 2:19. We could force the conclusion that those who are dead in Christ will raise themselves from the dead when Jesus returns. Please note that Paul doesn't tell the Thessalonians that the dead will be raised. Instead, he says they "shall rise." Even though the verse doesn't say it, we understand what is meant. We know that God will do the raising, but that is not what the verse actually says. The verb tense is accurately translated by the NASB.

    We know who will raise dead Christians because of what several verses say, not because one verse seems to say they will raise themselves. Similarly, we know who raised Jesus because of what several verses say, not because of what appears to be a contradiction from one or two other verses.

    I doubt Jesus here meant that his body was a Temple in which simply the spirit of God dwelled, when he said "destroy this Temple, and in three days I shall raise it up". And the point of Tijkmo about agents acting on Gods behalf, counts in the matter of JC, when he said that he himself would raise his body up.

    Each of us has a right to believe as we wish. I'm simply stating that there is another view besides the trinitarian one, and it's scriptural as well as reasonable.

    Frank

  • bob1999
    bob1999

    "A person doesn't have to be a member of the "WTS" to notice that there is a certain emphasis when more than 20 verses say the same thing, and only one or two verses appear to contradict what they say."





    There is a promise that Christ will, at some point, feed us in "full measure" from the tree of life. At that point we will become like THEM, God the Father and Christ Jesus. Knowing good and evil and living forever. What else is there? At that point we will be one with God and Christ. I don't think it's a stretch to think of God and Jesus as one.

  • cyberguy
    cyberguy

    *** w73 6/1 pp. 350-351 Questions from Readers ***

    • Does not John 2:19 indicate that Jesus would resurrect himself?—U.S.A.

    As evident from the context, John 2:19 pertains to the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. We read: “Jesus said to them: ‘Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ Therefore the Jews said: ‘This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?’ But he was talking about the temple of his body. When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say this; and they believed the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said:”—John 2:19-22.

    It should be noted that, in telling about the fulfillment of Jesus’ statement, the Bible does not say ‘he raised himself up from the dead,’ but “he was raised up from the dead.” Other scriptures clearly show that God was the One who resurrected his Son. The apostle Peter told Cornelius and his relatives and close friends: “God raised this One up on the third day.” (Acts 10:40) Hebrews 13:20 speaks of God as the One “who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant, our Lord Jesus.” And, in his letter to the Romans, the apostle Paul wrote: “If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you.” (Rom. 8:11) Accordingly, Jesus Christ simply could not have meant that he would raise himself up from the dead.

    Jesus, however, did know that he was going to die and be resurrected. On another occasion he told unbelieving scribes and Pharisees: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Matt. 12:39, 40) Having this advance knowledge about his death and resurrection, Jesus, in a predictive sense, could speak of ‘raising up the temple of his body.’ Since he foretold it, it was just as if he was going to do it. This might be illustrated with Ezekiel 43:3, where the prophet Ezekiel states: “I came to bring the city [Jerusalem] to ruin,” that is, by foretelling its destruction. Ezekiel as an exile in Babylon had no part in actually destroying Jerusalem; that was done by the Babylonians. But his prophecy, being divinely inspired, made it as good as done. (Compare also Jeremiah 1:10.) Similarly, Jehovah God resurrected his Son, but Jesus could speak of doing so in a prophetic sense.

    Moreover, God’s will, charge or command respecting his Son was that he die and be restored to life. Jesus willingly surrendered his life in harmony with his Father’s purpose. Jesus could therefore raise up the temple of his body in the sense that he had the authority to receive life again.

    On the third day God commanded Jesus to rise from the dead, and he did so by accepting or receiving life at his Father’s hand, by God’s authority. Along with life as a spirit Son, he received the right to perfect human life that, by dying in full innocence, he had not forfeited. This merit of his human sacrifice he thereafter presented to his Father in heaven. (Heb. 9:11-14, 24-28) This is in agreement with Jesus’ words at John 10:17, 18: “The Father loves me because I lay down my life, to receive it back again. No one has robbed me of it; I am laying it down of my own free will. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to receive it back again; this charge I have received from my Father.”—New English Bible.

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