A Case FOR Evolution? (page 3)

jwfacts

To argue against evolution is to argue against God's creation. You make out God to be a simpleton not capable of conceiving the breathtaking simplicity of the evolutionary process. Creationists have set up evolution as an anti-God straw man, in my view for no good reason than their own ignorance and self-interest.

Good comment. There is no reason God and Evolution can not coexist, creationists have become stuck on a very simple fundamentalist view of Genesis that inevitably leads to having to put forward the strawman and ignore reality.

Deputy Dog

skeptic2
Can you define this word for us?
"species"

Is it that hard?

tetrapod.sapien

skeptic2
Can you define this word for us?
"species"
Is it that hard?

and this is the problem with creationists: they don't think that hard. DD, perhaps someone wanted a definition of species because the word itself is an abstraction to help us understand our manifestly real world. genetically, there is no such thing as a pure species of anything, because when you approach the edges of what makes an organism similar to other organisms, the lines become grey. and that's because evolution (and speciation) does not occur on an individual basis. it occurs in populations of organisms that have been geographically or otherwise sepparated from their cousins. so mutations that take place in that population, over time, contribute to the genetic differences that would ultimately lead a biologist to say that a certain organism from population A is significantly different from cousin over in population B, and can now be called a different species. but there is nothing in the genome that explicitly says they are diferent species. just that they can no longer interbreed etc. they may even look the same though. but we need the systems of abstraction to help us organise the biological knowledge we have acrued over the last couple hundred years. and this is where the word: "species" comes from. it's an abstraction for organizational purposes that you creationists have latched onto because it's obviously simple enough for you to tear apart, without of course understanfing it's purposes, or analyzing any of YOUR implicit assumptions about the universe and our world. but genetically, we know that the difference betwen species is not as simple as ABC, 123, i see a dog and a chimpanzee! it's why the closest living relative, genetically, to the: human: chimpanzee: elephant: alt is the rock hyrax: represents that counts. so stop playing dumb. TS

nicolaou

Rex, what is god if he is not an "irreducible complexity"?

Terry

You want to know how to stop a Creationist dead in his tracks?

Make him explain DINOSAURS!

trevor

Evolution is all around us.

Cultures evolve. Religions evolve.

Christianity has evolved until we now have hundreds of species of Christians.

Some are advanced creatures while others are still dinosaurs.

Just one ‘shining’ example.

AlmostAtheist

>>Evolution is all around us.
Cultures evolve. Religions evolve.
Christianity has evolved until we now have hundreds of species of Christians.

Brilliant! Yes, "change" is inevitable. Evolution is just the biological expression of that inevitable change. When you get even the first glimmers of an understanding of what evolution is (which is just about where I am -- maybe half-glimmers), you see that it isn't something that "might" have happened. It MUST have happened, must be happening right now. You couldn't stop it if you tried.

Interesting, isn't it, that nobody contests that all those other changes take place? Nobody says that God created 6,000 religions just as they are today, or that he created the space shuttle, or artistic technique. Everyone accepts that we painted on cave walls, then got a handle on media, then understood perspective, then moved into impressionism and cubism and all that, each generation building on the successful work of the previous one. THAT evolution everybody's ok with. But in this one area, it simply couldn't have happened. Interesting...

Dave

skeptic2

"you see that it isn't something that "might" have happened. It MUST have happened, must be happening right now. You couldn't stop it if you tried."

Hallelujah!

tetrapod.sapiens - great username!

skeptic2

"Rex, what is god if he is not an "irreducible complexity"?"

This is a great point, and reminds me of an interesting thought experiment for theist/deists:

'God' is presumed by believers to exist outside of the known universe. God created the universe. In order to create the universe, there must be space to create it in, at a minimum there needs to be as many dimensions as we have in our universe, in order for our universe to be created in this space. And in order to enact the act of creation there must be the potential for change, i.e. time. God needs time in which to create the universe. The question is, who created the space and time, the universe, in which God exists. According to the logic of God-believers, it must be another god. If it's another god, outside of this god's space-time, the same applies again. Ad infinitum.

I know this is just an extension of the 'who created God?' question, but the added detail is useful.

tetrapod.sapien

Some are advanced creatures while others are still dinosaurs.

:)

and the evolved ones among us laughed, along with the silence of animals.

This is a great point, and reminds me of an interesting thought experiment for theist/deists:
'God' is presumed by believers to exist outside of the known universe. God created the universe. In order to create the universe, there must be space to create it in, at a minimum there needs to be as many dimensions as we have in our universe, in order for our universe to be created in this space. And in order to enact the act of creation there must be the potential for change, i.e. time. God needs time in which to create the universe. The question is, who created the space and time, the universe, in which God exists. According to the logic of God-believers, it must be another god. If it's another god, outside of this god's space-time, the same applies again. Ad infinitum.

cool man... ts

A Case FOR Evolution?

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