A quote from this site - http://www.2001translation.com/Jerusalem's%20destruction%20587%20or%20607.htm says that 'Most historians agree that 539-B.C.E. is the date of the overthrow of Babylon, for there is much evidence pointing to this. So, it is called an absolute date.'
This is the main argument Pro-607 sites use to support their chronology. By then counting backwards from 537 to 607, this is their 70 years of desolation. My question is, how can they possibly use 539 as an absolute date based on 'much evidence pointing to this' but refuse to believe the 586/587 evidence? I have done A LOT of research on this, and I haven't found more conclusive evidence to support 539 than to support 586/587. Is there actually more evidence in support of 539? Because I can't find it if there is...
I suppose it shows some people will never believe the obvious if they don't want to... Sad.
539 BCE
by Zico 142 Replies latest jw friends
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Zico
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Muffinman
You're absolutely right, 586/7 is a well established date. Most pro-607 arguments in the end boil down to "The Bible says 70 years!" And I guess I agree with you that it is sad for people to be completely ignorant of facts when it goes against their beliefs.
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scholar
Zico
The reason why celebrated WT scholars use 539 BCE as a pivotal date for biblical chronology is because this date is for an historical event that is well established by secular and biblical evidence. This is not the case for all other proposed dates claimed by scholars and apostates. It all boils down to methodology and by adopting a precise methodology, celebrated WT scholars are able to determine a framework odf chronology that alone is faithful to both the biblical and secular data which alone recognizes the importance of the seventy years used to fix the precise date for the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE and the Return of the Jewish exiles in 537 BCE.
scholar JW
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drew sagan
This is all for scolar:
Not trying to start a fight here, but since nobody from the WTS actually takes credit for their work (or responsiblity) could you please define what a "celebrated WT scholar" is?
Also, I'm curious as to two other things of much more importance.
1. What is the best documented research you feel proves the Watchtower Chronology as accurate. Has anybody actually gone through the 'Gentile Times' book and commented on all of Jonsson's evidence?
2. Even if 607 B.C.E. is the correct date, is it responsible to use it in a way that conflicts with Luke 21:8? Should Christians really be interested in setting dates and timetables as to when things in this world are going to occur, or should they patiently wait for their Lord no matter what peroid in time they live?
I await your answers with interest. -
carla
Just in case Scholar doesn't show up-
celebrated wt scholar is just his way of annoying everybody and his own twisted way of justifying their lack of real scholars.
1. I believe Furuli (sp?) has tried to refute Jonsson extensively.
2. We wait only upon the proper food at the proper time from God's mouthpiece, the wt. We have replaced Jesus with the gov body and have little need for him.
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Jeffro
The reason why celebrated WT scholars use 539 BCE as a pivotal date for biblical chronology is because this date is for an historical event that is well established by secular and biblical evidence. This is not the case for all other proposed dates claimed by scholars and apostates. It all boils down to methodology and by adopting a precise methodology, celebrated WT scholars are able to determine a framework odf chronology that alone is faithful to both the biblical and secular data which alone recognizes the importance of the seventy years used to fix the precise date for the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE and the Return of the Jewish exiles in 537 BCE.
Why is an astronomical diary detailing the reign of Cambyses II in combination with the last known dated inscription dated for Cyrus good enough for the Society for accepting 539, but the exact same methods are rejected by the Society for the reigns of the Neo-Babylonian kings? 'scholar' has not indicated how it is at all possible for the Jews to have returned in 537 in view of the evidence.
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Jeffro
You're absolutely right, 586/7 is a well established date. Most pro-607 arguments in the end boil down to "The Bible says 70 years!" And I guess I agree with you that it is sad for people to be completely ignorant of facts when it goes against their beliefs.
No need to say 586/7. It was 587. Let me explain... 2 Kings 25:1 indicates that the siege began in the 10th month of Zedekiah's 9th year (around January); Jeremiah 32:1 indicates that it continued through Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year. Jeremiah 52:12-14 places the destruction of the temple on or shortly after the 10th day of the 5th month (Ab, corelating to the beginning of August) of Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year. Jeremiah, in Jerusalem, did not use the accession-year system, meaning that by his reckoning, the years of Nebuchadnezzar's reign start from 605BC, not 604BC. This is confirmed by the fact that Daniel 1:1 refers to Jehoiakim's third year, whereas Jeremiah 25:1 refers to the same year as Jehoiakim's fourth year. Some have been confused by ambiguity of Jeremiah chapter 52:28-30 which does refer to years of Nebuchadnezzar using the accession-year system as per Babylonian custom. The key to resolving this ambiguity is that Jeremiah 51:64 indicates that Jeremiah didn't actually write those verses. (The rest of Jeremiah chapter 52 is a copy of 2 Kings 4:18 to 5:21,27-30, but verses 28-30 are an interpolation.) This completely harmonizes chapter 52's references to 7th and 18th years with other references to 8th and 19th years mentioned elsewhere in 2 Kings and Jeremiah. Significantly, shifting the year away from 587 would also require shifting the year of the siege in 597 - a known date - as well as all other dates associated with the reign of Nebuchadnezzar.
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Honesty
The reason why celebrated WT scholars use 539 BCE as a pivotal date for biblical chronology is because this date is for an historical event that is well established by secular and biblical evidence. This is not the case for all other proposed dates claimed by scholars and apostates. It all boils down to methodology and by adopting a precise methodology, celebrated WT scholars are able to determine a framework odf chronology that alone is faithful to both the biblical and secular data which alone recognizes the importance of the seventy years used to fix the precise date for the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE and the Return of the Jewish exiles in 537 BCE.
scholar JW
Here ya go, scholar. Words of wisdom from your idols, the Watchtower scholars:
The "Faithful Discreet Slave" doctrine rests solely upon the date of Jerusalem's destruction by Nebuchadnezzar .
According to the Watchtower publication "You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth" (WTBTS 1989) in Chapter 16, "God’s Government Begins Its Rule" pages 138-141 paragraphs 14-21 Jesus Christ began to rule as king of God’s heavenly government in 1914.
According to the Watchtower Society, Jesus inspected all organizations who claimed to represent Him shortly after He became enthroned as king in 1914:
WT 87 6/15 p. 10 A Time of Testing and Sifting
WT 87 6/15 p. 15 Testing and Sifting in Modern Times
Revelation- It's Grand Climax At Hand! chapter 27 page 183
Jesus picked the modern-day Jehovah's Witnesses according to the Watchtower Society.
Using only literature published by the Watchtower Society and one scripture we can rather easily see the chronology regarding the destruction of Jerusalem.
There is really not much to learn here, either:
No astronomy, no neo-Babylonian tablets, and no confusing Bible versus will be presented. Just the names of five people and several quotes from Watchtower publications will be used. Also, there is no need to quibble over things like regnal years, ascension years, cardinal and ordinal numbers, etc. Remember, 607 B.C. is a full 20 years earlier than the accepted date of 586/87 B.C. and all the tinkering with a few months here and a few partial year reigns there cannot make up a difference of twenty years.
Another tricky part to remember is that people were very primitive in those years before a sensible calendar that actually counts FORWARD as you go forward rather than BACKWARD as you go forward was incorporated.
We have to start AFTER the date of Jerusalem's fall with a date and event that is agreed upon by both the WTS and secular historians.
From this date we will count backward by counting forward.
That date is 539 B.C., the date that Babylon fell to Cyrus the Mede.
Keep in mind we are trying to find the date Jerusalem fell.
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Insight on the Scriptures published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in volume 1 on page 425 under "Chaldea" has a complete list of the Babylonian kings from Nabopolassar to
Balshazzar:
"Particularly was this domination manifest during the seventh and sixth centuries B.C.E. when Nabopolassar, a native of Chaldea, and his successors, Nebuchadnezzar II, Evil-merodach (Awil-Marduk), Neriglissar, Labashi-Marduk, Nabonidus, and Belshazzar, ruled the Third World Power, Babylon."
_______________________________________________________________Insight on the Scriptures published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in volume 2 on page 480 under "Nebuchadnezzar" tells us that he ruled as king for 43 years:
Second ruler of the Neo-Babylonian Empire; son of Nabopolassar and father of Awil-Marduk (Evil-merodach), who succeeded him to the throne. Nebuchadnezzar ruled as king for 43 years...
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An article entitled, "The Rejoicing of the Wicked Is Short-lived" on page 29 in the January 1,1965 Watchtower magazine lists the regnal years of Nebuchadnezzar II's successors from Evil-Merodach to Nabonidus who, in this article the Watchtower confirms was ruler of Babylon when Cyrus conquered it in 539 B.C.:
Evil-merodach reigned two years and was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar, who reigned for four years, which time he spent mainly in building operations. His underage son Labashi-Marduk, a vicious boy, succeeded him, and was assassinated within nine months. Nabonidus, who had served as governor of Babylon and who had been Nebuchadnezzar’s favorite son-in-law, took the throne and had a fairly glorious reign until Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E.
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Insight on the Scriptures published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in volume 2 on page 457 under "Nabonidus" tells us that he ruled some 17 years:
Last supreme monarch of the Babylonian Empire; father of Belshazzar. On the basis of cuneiform texts he is believed to have ruled some 17 years (556-539 B.C.E.). He was given to literature, art, and religion
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Let's summarize (remember we have to go backwards starting in 539 B.C. with Nabonidus):
Nabonidus ruled Babylon for 17 years until it fell in 539 B.C. to Cyrus.
Labashi-Marduk ruled for 9 months.
Neriglissar ruled for 4 years.
Evil-Merodach ruled for 2 years.
Nebuchadnezzer ruled for 43 years.
17 years + 9 months + 4 years + 2 years + 43 years = 66 to 67 years.
Starting at 539 B.C. and going back 66/67 years we arrive at 605/606 B.C. for the start of the reign of Nebuchadnezzer.
2nd Kings 25:8-10 tells us that Jerusalem was destroyed in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzer's reign, so if we go forward 19 years from 605/606 B.C. we will have the approximate years of the destruction of Jerusalem.
Nineteen years after 605/606 B.C. brings us to 586/587 B.C. which agrees with all secular evidence.
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That's it!
Prove 607 B.C.E. as the date for Jerusalem's fall and you have proved the authority of the Governing Body of JW's.
Prove that 607 B.C.E. is not the date for Jerusalem's fall and you have just one of many apocalyptic doomsday religions that use fear and intimidation to maintain their authority and control over their followers.
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smellsgood
"Prove 607 B.C.E. as the date for Jerusalem's fall and you have proved the authority of the Governing Body of JW's."
smellsgood: The rest of your post was great, but I do have to disagree with this. The dates, the math, the 2520 years still means nothing. There is not invisible return of Jesus. It's just sillyness. There's nowhere in the Scripture that connects the stuff in Daniel with an organization tying it to an invisible return of Christ electing them in 1914. The whole thing is sheer lunacy.
"Prove that 607 B.C.E. is not the date for Jerusalem's fall and you have just one of many apocalyptic doomsday religions that use fear and intimidation to maintain their authority and control over their followers."
The part where the WT spouts bullocks, that's more like it.
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Goldminer
My wife has actually printed some of this websites poor arguments to try and prove 607 to me.She especially liked the one that said the Jews returned in 537 therefore you count back 70 years and you get to 607.That's when I tell her that nowhere in the article does it quote Jeremiah 25:12:" And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation..."
It clearly shows that the seventy years had to end in 539 bce.So if you want to count back 70 years you end up in 609 bce.It's a very poor argument but a lot jw's in denial will readily accept it.If it was that simple the WT would be promoting it left and right but they know it doesn't agree with the scriptures.
Goldminer