I'm only throwing this out there because no one else has mentioned it. And honestly I'm shocked, shocked I tell you (tongue firmly planted in cheek), about as shocked as I was to discover that JWs don't believe in the soul and Jesus as God and the redemption of ALL mankind (not just JWs)~and wondering if we were reading the same bible??
The fact is, the bible was compiled out of a series of documents that were floating about in the Christian community in the first couple hundred years after Jesus' death. Who compiled it? The Catholic Church. Why is it inspired? Because Jesus himself commissioned the Church and sent the Holy Spirit to guide it. (Matt. 18:17-18, Matt. 28:20) Do you honestly think that any church could have a straight line of successors and a doctrine on faith and morals that has been UNCHANGED for 2000 years and NOT be guided by the Holy Spirit? It defies imagination.
The point is, if you need to consult the "authors" of the bible, look to the Church. St. Paul called the Church the "pillar and foundation of truth". The truth is there, I promise you. God loves each of you so much!! It makes me so sad to know how corrupted and twisted a message you have received from your teachers.
I know you think I must be crazy, right? But, the bible is to be understood in a straightforward way, and Catholic interpretation is the most straightforward of all. Don't take my word for it. Try it yourself. Start with the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, concentrating on Jesus' own words. Read them straight through, like reading a story, no cherry-picked scriptures, no interpretation. And get yourself a bible translation that YOU can read (I can't stand archaic-sounding bibles like the KJV, but that is my preference). When you get to the end, you will be well on your way to REALLY understanding what God intends for the human soul. Do a search on Catholic doctrine. Does it seem to reflect what you read, yourself? Decide for yourself!
God bless! I am praying for you all...
Why is truth is so hard to find in Bible
by The Dragon 48 Replies latest watchtower bible
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magdelaine
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DannyBloem
The fact is, the bible was compiled out of a series of documents that were floating about in the Christian community in the first couple hundred years after Jesus' death. Who compiled it? The Catholic Church. Why is it inspired? Because Jesus himself commissioned the Church and sent the Holy Spirit to guide it. (Matt. 18:17-18, Matt. 28:20)
This is the WT kind of logic: teh bible is true, because the bible says so...
Do you honestly think that any church could have a straight line of successors and a doctrine on faith and morals that has been UNCHANGED for 2000 years and NOT be guided by the Holy Spirit? It defies imagination.
I think you caqn hardly say that morals and doctrine is unchanged for 2000 years.
I know you think I must be crazy, right?
No of course not, just mislead.
God bless! I am praying for you all...
I know it is kind, but if it is the same to you, please exclude me
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M.J.
Just look on any religious organization's website and on one brief page you could find a quick summary with bullet point statements outlining what they believe is truth, and it's all perfectly clear.
The JWs seem to assume that the Bible takes the same approach at presenting a set of beliefs, except that each bullet statement is isolated and spread throughout its thousands of pages. It must be the main job of the Faithful Slave to rummage through all those words find these special statements, which all JWs have come to know by heart.
Something tells me that this wasn't the real point of the Bible in the first place.
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gumby
Poppers, sorry for the way late response as I assumed you wouldn't be back. I appreciate your efforts in trying to explain your understanding of what truth is.
What I am trying to say about "truth" cannot be put into words because truth itself is beyond words, that's why it's confusing. We think "truth" is something the mind can understand, but the mind is limited to the conceptual only.
So poppers, if your mind cannot comprehend truth, then neither you nor any other human can even attempt to explain it. Frankly it sounds like a cop-out to me. If the mind cannot comprehend it, then how do you know "truth exists". Your telling me the mind can't comprehend it yet your saying it exists. Where in your body did you concieve of the idea of truth then? In your finger, your toe, your elbow......where?
In all this typing you did, I am as lost as I was before you tried to explain anything and so is everyone who read this that hasn't read the book,....or at least similar books you learned this idea from.....sorry.
If the mind knows truth exists, then you shouldn't have too much trouble explaining it.....and if the mind cannot explain it, then there is no proof it exists.
"Stillness of the eye" - the mind can't wrap itself around that, but there can be the realization of a stillness beneath every movement that arises out of one's very being. What you are in actuality is stillness itself, and that stillness can be felt no matter what sort of activity one is engaged in. We tend to focus on activity in the outside world, all the while ignoring the stillness that is at our very core, that IS our very core.
You went through a lot of trouble using the word "stillness", yet not one time did you convey just WHAT stillness means. What IS "stillness" poppers? If it's a realness to our soul that we exist....big deal, ....I already KNOW I exist and so does everyone else who's alive.
Gumsimple-mind
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poppers
"So poppers, if your mind cannot comprehend truth, then neither you nor any other human can even attempt to explain it."
The most anyone can do is attempt to explain it. These attempts are pointers only. There is a saying, "Don't mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon" - that's all any teaching is, no matter what it is, a pointer. So it's not a comprehension, which is a mental activity, it is a realization. One can describe to another what an orange tastes like, but no matter how "accurate" the description, one won't know what an orange tastes like until one actually tastes it for himself - this "experience" of tasting isn't a comprehension but a realization. You don't "think" about how it tastes to "know" how it tastes. It is a pure experience prior to the arising of any description of it. Nobody can "give" you the taste of the orange through their description.
"Frankly it sounds like a cop-out to me."
This is certainly understandable from the viewpoint of an ego/me. This sort of a description is a way for the ego to avoid the direct seeing because ego feels threatened by this.
"If the mind cannot comprehend it, then how do you know "truth exists".
This "truth" is KNOWINGNESS itself - it isn't dependent upon concepts. There can be "knowing" without an object to be known. This knowing is consciousness/awareness. In most instances there is the "knowing about" this, that, or some other thing in particular. In other words, there is the knowing of thoughts, emotions, sensations, and events. What I am pointing to is the underlying consciousness through which those things are known.
"Your telling me the mind can't comprehend it yet your saying it exists. Where in your body did you concieve of the idea of truth then? In your finger, your toe, your elbow......where?"
You "know" that you exist, don't you? You said this later in your post. Any need for thoughts to confirm this knowing that you exist? There is a direct and immediate knowing isn't there. The "knowing" isn't isolated in any particular place. Consciousness has no boundary to limit it anywhere. You are looking to confine it somewhere specific.
"In all this typing you did, I am as lost as I was before you tried to explain anything and so is everyone who read this that hasn't read the book,....or at least similar books you learned this idea from.....sorry."
Well, there were ideas from books that told me of this but it didn't mean a thing until I actually investigated for myself. I had heard these ideas more than 30 years ago but it wasn't until 6 years ago that I bothered to look into it directly rather than just think about it. Perhaps this was because I wasn't ready yet to relinquish my dependence upon the mind (I was still identified with mind as being essentially "me"), or perhaps it wasn't explained clearly enough to me - I don't really know. The critical thing was the actual "seeing" for myself. After that, there was no need to hear about it from anyone else - all the books and descriptions became superfluous.
"If the mind knows truth exists, then you shouldn't have too much trouble explaining it.....and if the mind cannot explain it, then there is no proof it exists."
The mind doesn't know truth - the mind hears about truth and then seeks it, not knowing that the very seeking impedes the seeing of it. Quite a conundrum if one remains identified with the mind.
Quoting me: "Stillness of the eye" - the mind can't wrap itself around that, but there can be the realization of a stillness beneath every movement that arises out of one's very being. What you are in actuality is stillness itself, and that stillness can be felt no matter what sort of activity one is engaged in. We tend to focus on activity in the outside world, all the while ignoring the stillness that is at our very core, that IS our very core."
"You went through a lot of trouble using the word "stillness", yet not one time did you convey just WHAT stillness means. What IS "stillness" poppers?"
Stillness is stillness - no movement. There is a ground of awareness that lies beneath everything, that infuses everything, and this is consciousness. Consciousness is still, it does not move. This is what you actually are, this consiousness that is always and ever still. Because of this stillness movement "stands out" and is noticed. Without this stillness/consciousness movement couldn't be known. From this vantage point of stillness everything else arises, stays a bit, and then fades again, but the stillness remains. This stillness is actually felt/noticed no matter what is happening, and it is peaceful, and so nothing which happens overshadows this peacefulness of stillness.
"If it's a realness to our soul that we exist....big deal,"
I don't characterize this as a "realness to our soul" because I don't really know what "soul" is, I only know what some people say that it is. I am relating how this actually through my own experience is felt/known.
" ....I already KNOW I exist and so does everyone else who's alive."
You automatically discard the idea of this, but have you immersed yourself in the reality of this? Stay with the "knowing" of your existence. This "knowing" of existence IS truth. To retreat into mind after the "knowing" keeps you bound and confused. I understand how this happens, the retreating back into the mind, most people do that. We are so conditioned to rely on the mind that it is hard to overcome this conditioning, but it can be done. -
Qcmbr
The naff thing is that the bible is just a collection of sermons etc.. Most churches pick a doctrine from this one and a doctrine from that one. In other words they couldn't have a cohesive doctrinal whole without all the available books which of course is a false premise - until the bible was put together no-one had access to the whole set of books. Until a church has the balls/authenticty to declare truth utterly independent of the bible (in other words to declare that God is the source of truth and that they are in contact with God - not some words on a page) then forget being able to find religious truth in the bible - you'll only end up creating another religion with your private interpretation of the scriptures.
To make this clearer - what would JWs teach about 1914 if Daniel didn't happen to be in the bible? They would completely miss this doctrine out. For any sincere JWs you have to question the validity of your religion if it relies upon 66 books chosen by the Catholics, refined by the Protestants and finally re-written by the GB. Or let's look at it another way - how would modern day christianity have turned out if Judas and other gnostic gospels had been canonised and some current hot favourites like Revelations (which I read on at least one site regarding spurious scriptures was considered for the chop) hadn't. God / Jesus and the facts wouldn't have changed one iota but people would be preaching a different gospel. -
gumby
So then poppers, has this changed your life, made you happy, fullfilled you, given you all the answer to satisfy you for the most part , are there now any voids, can you conquer these voids if there are any?
....and, thank you for the time you spent with this. I didn't mean to sound over critical...It's just I don't understand any of what your saying. I suppose deep meditation might help a person realise these things, something I've never done before.
Gumby
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poppers
Hi gumby.
"So then poppers, has this changed your life, made you happy, fullfilled you,..."
Yes, this has changed my life - happiness, fullfillment, contentment, and peacefulness. These is my constant experience.
"...given you all the answer to satisfy you for the most part"
What I have found is that there is no more seeking after anything in order to make me feel happy or complete. This doesn't mean I am not curious about things, but it does mean that my happiness isn't dependent upon finding answers to what piques my curiosity.
"are there now any voids, can you conquer these voids if there are any?"
I'm not sure what you mean by "voids", but there isn't any sense of something lacking, that needs to be met. Resting in/as my real nature is fully satisfying. With the realization of my real nature everything else is seen as a sort of play which arises and fades away, not touching the real me in any way. If I find I am being swept up in events, thoughts, or emotions I know that there has been a re-identification with the ego sense. This really hasn't happened much at all in these last 6 years.
"....and, thank you for the time you spent with this."
I find I enjoy trying to put words to that which is impossible to describe.
"I didn't mean to sound over critical..."
Hey, no problem.
"It's just I don't understand any of what your saying."
I understand. You're not alone in your difficulty in grasping this. Those who resonate with this often go on a path find this, and that very thing is what gets in the way. If you can simply recognize all those ways in which you seek and then stop doing those things you will arrive at the "goal". JamesThomas often says to go into nature and simply experience what arises; don't label what is seen or arises within you, just watch it without judgment. Those are wise pointers - he sees this clearly for himself.
"I suppose deep meditation might help a person realise these things, something I've never done before."
Yes, meditation may be helpful, but it isn't essential. I meditated for 27 years and learned to tame the mind, and I felt quite proud of this ability. What I didn't understand, however, was that the "me" who was practicing meditation was just more mind. In other words, "poppers" was only a group of thoughts that I identified with and which "meditated", but when looked for "poppers" couldn't be found. I couldn't find a separate and distinct entity known as "poppers"; all I could find were IDEAS of who "poppers" was (ideas which often changed or faded altogether) and the AWARENESS in which those ideas appeared. That was the turning point - there were times when "poppers" was nowhere to be found but there was still awareness, there was still the sense of existence - there was just this "knowing" that was shining all by itself.
This is when the "lights" went on to what I actually was. Suddenly there was the realization that all of "my" problems were only thoughts held in the mind and believed in. It was "poppers" who believed in those problems, but "poppers" was discovered not to be actually real. With the dissolving of identification with "poppers" came the dissolving of all of his problems.
All of these words, all of these pointers aren't really necessary for anyone to discover this for themselves. Be still, watch what is happening within and without, don't judge anything, notice what is here all the time. Turn attention to the sense of your own presence, the sense of existence. This sense of presence/existence can be felt while looking at nature as well, that's why nature can be such a powerful reminder of our true nature.
What I am pointing to is always here so there really isn't anything to achieve that you don't already have - the only problem is that it is being overlooked in favor of everything else. It's here but it's being ignored. There is just a subtle shift in perspective away from a personal "me" and "it" begins to pop out at you.
Take care gumby, you're one of my favorites here.
the performer formerly known as "poppers" ;) -
moshe
I have come to the conclusion that man will have to take care of himself and this planet himself for as long as we are able. It is a forgone fact that total extinction events have happened in the past and will occur again in the future. The God of the Bible will not stop an asteroid collision, supervocano, global iceage, supernova killer gamma ray burst, etc- the extermination of the human race will happen just like it did to T-Rex and his kin and no amount of prayer will stop it from happening. I wonder what our future replacement will think about our fossils in a 100 million years. I suspect that men who are alive when the extinction event occurs will finally stop arguing about the Bible.
peace,
Moshe