by Hamboozled 19 Replies latest jw friends
Hello Hamboozled,
welkom to this board.
About your question, I had that asked recently and I find it hard to answer, especially I'm still considered JW. Me and my friends always said that if tis is not the true religion then tere is no true religion. I still think that is valid.
D B
Dear Hamboozled,
WELCOME!!! We are glad to have you here! I just recently had my Aunt, who just found out how we feel (she is on the other side of the country), throw these same questions at us. Here are some of our comments:
After Jesus died there were many congregations...true. Many say that there has always been a governing body in place. From Jesus time forward. Well, if that was true, then why did Russell take it upon himself to be the one and only "faithful servant"? Why did he not consult with them? How come Jesus had to identify this small group of "fiathful" ones and pull them out of false religon, if, they already had a governing body that was in existance since Jesus day?In fact the governing body did not even come into existance until 1975. And in a talk he repeatedly gave scripture after scripture as to why forming a governing body was NOT in harmony with early Christians.
SInce it was a group just begining.. how were they identified in 1919? If they were selected and approved of by Christ Jesus, and he was giving them food at the proper time.. why has then, the "slave" rejected what the "master" approved? Why would I be disfellowshipped today, if I went around publically preaching and believing the things taught way back then? Were they from Jesus or not? Truth cannot change.. what is truth now, will be truth a billion years from now!
Up to 1919.. were there not those who on there own, were true christians, without a organization?? When you take away the whole 607 date (because it is false), you no longer have 1914/1919 as being selected by Jehovah and Jesus. Have they proven to be from Jehovah? Lets look at all the different things they have taught as from "God's mouth". How many of those things have been totally abandond? Even the things that were prophecied about, that never came true..
Jesus gave life to the person next to him while dying, by saying "Truely I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise." What was the only thing he had to have?? Faith. Because of his faith, he was given life. Why would Jesus have a different standard for us today? Jesus didn't tell him.. well sorry you only have faith.. if you would have attended the congregation, or even preached, well then I would have given you life. We believe it is MUCH simpler than the Witnesses want to make it. If you read the Gospels you will see the only thing required. Love and Faith. That is what will be rewarded. Everlasting life is a "free" gift. It cannot be bought by works. Love and Faith will motivate your heart to do works, but they are acts of love and faith, fruitages of the Spirit that will natually come when one had Love and Faith. So by judging others that they are "apostate", or that they are going to die because they are not in service, or at the meetings is saying salvation is earned. It cannot be free if you have to earn it. By saying more is required, is saying that Jesus ransom fell short. It wasn't quite good enough.
We believe now, after a thorough examination of the scriptures and especially their context, that Jesus and Jehovah will look at the heart. We will be examined, yes, but did we display Christ like love, and did we have faith in his ransom?
We don't believe any religion has all the answers. And after a thorough examination of the Witnesses, we know for sure they don't either. We certainly know how Jehovah feels about lying and deciept. Because our conscience won't allow us to any longer belong to a organization that expects me to pretend I don't know what I now know, and expects us to continue to perpetuate these lies, we cannot in good conscience do this. We still have to answer to Jehovah and Christ Jesus for our actions. We feel we don't have to belong to any religion..but we will each be examined individually.
These were some of the things said in our conversation. Of course at times we were hollared at, and were called "apostates" and "a voice of a stranger" because of it. But.. they called Jesus an "apostate" too! So.. if her heart isn't ready for truth then it will be hardened. Maybe somthing we said will prick her conscience.
What has been your reply??
Again WELCOME!
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
What about the gathering of yourselves together?
Ah, so, the old Hebrews 10:24, 25 lob: "And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near."
This is the one with which I am most often confronted--most recently 4 days ago from a dear and well-meaning questioner. My kneejerk response never fails to render the questioner dumbstruck:
Does Hebrews 10 or any other scripture mandate: 1) the required number of fellow believers with whom we must gather? 2) or how frequently this specific number of believers must gather? 3) or the precise day, time and location at which this specific group of believers must convene? 4) or the length of time the specific group of believers are required to spend together, once gathered, in order to satisfy Hebrews?
After posing these questions in methodical succession--adamantly, yet in abundant calm and mildness, pause. Stop talking. Resist the impulse to keep talking. Make and keep pleasant, non-confrontational eye contact.
Allow your subject a few moments to process the significance of your questions.
You'll find yourself amazed at how often, after only a few seconds pondering, without any prompting on your part, your subject will concede- "...the Bible does say 'f or where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.'”
I will occasionally then drive home my conclusion by suggesting that my spouse and I are in compliance with Hebrews 10 whenever we share a scriptural moment of whatever length--even "grace" before having a meal, just the two of us, in the privacy of our home, at whatever time we choose for whatever amount of time it naturally requires or we desire, with no need to adhere to some rigidly pre-determined schedule or format.
My personal experience has been that, although this will not likely staunch all future efforts to "encourage," it completely undoes their toolbox staple that Christians are required to report to pre-formatted "meetings" at specifically-scheduled, -designated, and -assigned times and locations in order to satisfy Paul's exhortation.
Best of luck to you and your family.
AMNESIAN
Welcome hamboozled!
Hi Hamboozled and welcome to you and your wife.
I have not had any relative or friend even TRY to help me back so I am talking only theoretically.
I would point to only Jesus'words and the things he said to identify his followers.
"I am the way, truth and life, no one comes to the father except through me"
"Love God with your whole mind soul strength and your neighbor as yourself"
Too many religions add alot to the simplicity of Jesus' words.
Just wanted to welcome you to the board Ham...
Amnesian:
***After posing these questions in methodical succession--adamantly, yet in abundant calm and mildness, pause. Stop talking. Resist the impulse to keep talking. Make and keep pleasant, non-confrontational eye contact.***
That's an excellent strategy often used in business negotiations, also known as "he who speaks first loses."
Hi, Ham.
if this is not the true religion what is?
You can not offer a valid answer to this to people too ignorant to hear.
"True religion", is an oxymoron. The actual reality of truth can not be encapsulated by the minds thoughts, ideas, concepts and beliefs -- which is all religion amounts to. You want to know truth, then forsake religion and other mind generated "truths", and simply be very present with the reality (truth) of life and consciousness in and around you right now.
THERE IS NO TRUE RELIGION! Truth, is too alive, too close, too immediate, too endlessly wondrous to be captured and distilled into a belief system. Religion is one of the major factors which blind us to what is -- and has always been -- here, already.
j
The one true religion is to believe in Jesus Christ and live for Him. Christianity.
Love God with all your heart, soul and mind. Love one another.
If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
(James 1:26)
It's interresting that a distinction is made between God and the Father. Not that the Father isn't God, but why the separate references? (Just food for thought. I don't want to hijack this thread)
The core problem with religion is it's based on the assumption that Peter Pan and Tinkerbell are real. Once we understand Peter Pan is real, then why can't he fly? And why can't Tinkerbell's magic powder be pink?
To understand something, take it out of context. If that still doesn't work, then reduce it to the ridiculous.
One of my favorite reads is Kissing Hank's Ass
http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php
