JW speechless!

turbonium

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:8-18;&version=31; I showed my JW friend those verses. It works with JW altered bible also. At first God is saying that he is the alpha and the omega (first and the last) then in verse 17-18 Jesus says that he is the first and the last. so this makes Jesus and God have the same age. Therefore Jesus is apart of the godship, or Jesus is a false god. My friend did not have an answer, she said she has to 'look into it'. I bet this passage has been brought up before. I wonder what reply JW have to say about it.

Wasanelder Once

Trust me, they have an answer for that. Title's are often used towards individuals of different authority. In the long run, who cares? I know, you and probably others. If its all about winning battles I think its just another kind of warfare. Its one of the reasons religion turns my stomach these days.

Everyone's an expert on what cannot really be known.

W.Once

ringo5

Well, WTS is certainly not speechless on the identity of the Alpha and Omega...lol. It would be far easier for them to say, "Look, we just don't know, alright?"

Who is the One who is coming Rev 22:12
The Finished Mystery 1917….. Jesus

1:8. I am THE Alpha and I AM ALSO THE Omega .— Alpha is the first letter, and Omega the last letter, of the Greek alphabet.The Beginning and the Ending .— "Our Lord's great honor is shown in that He was not only the first of God's creation, but the last. From this we are to understand that the great Jehovah did not directly employ His own power in creating either men or angels; but that He delegated His power to His Only-begotten Son."— Z.'93-115. Saith the Lord GOD .— But not the clergy; they will have none of this doctrine.Which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty .— "It is since His resurrection that the message has gone forth— 'All power in Heaven and in earth is given unto Me.' (Matt. 28:18.) Consequently it is only since then that He could be called
22:12. [And] behold, I come quickly.— See Rev. 16:15; 22:7, 10, 20. The Lord Himself becomes the speaker.And My reward is with Me, to [give] BE GIVEN every man.— Every man in Christ.According as his work [shall be] IS.— The Church's work is practically finished. The reward is given on the basis of the work already done, in character development and in the natural outgrowth of that development— works.
22:13. I am Alpha and Omega, THE FIRST AND THE LAST, the Beginning and the End, [the First and the Last].— "Our Lord tells us over and over again (See Rev. 1:8, 11, 17; 2:8; 3:14; 21:6), that He is the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last, of the creation of God."— Z.'93-115.
FM337
22:16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.— All down the Age the Church has had this Message; all down the Age holy men of God have sought to understand its mysteries; all down the Age it has remained a closed book. But now the Mystery of God is finished; and the object of keeping the book closed is accomplished. God wished the world to know when the time for the complete removal or error and for the establishment of His Kingdom would come; and so He enables the last members of His Church to give the Message.

*** w52 4/15 p. 242 The Field of Bible Prophecy…Jehovah

Jehovah is the great Author and Finisher of his works, and this is so indicated in Revelation 1:8 (NW), where it says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says Jehovah God, ‘the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.’” Only Jehovah God knows the end from the beginning and therefore can foreknow future events in accord with his purposes. (Isa. 46:9, 10, AS

Jesus

Jesus associated his return with the rewarding of his followers. Said he: “If I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.” And again: “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is.” Paul understood it this way, for he wrote: “I have fought the right fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith. From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but to all those who have loved his manifestation.”—John 14:3; Rev. 22:12; 2 Tim. 4:7, 8, NW.

w67 11/15 p. 680 Make Up Your Mind Now as to Whom You Will serve..Jehovah

Jehovah God himself next speaks to John, revealing the critical situation, the extreme danger if any one of God’s anointed ones becomes lax in the least way toward righteousness. Jehovah says: “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is.”—Rev. 22:12.

*** w67 11/15 pp. 679-680 Make Up Your Mind Now as to Whom You Will Serve ***
All these publications have received worldwide distribution and have not been revised or altered to please the religious beliefs nor the customs and practices of different peoples of earth. No, the unadulterated truth of the prophecy has been proclaimed to all.

*** w76 11/15 p. 700 A Revelation—of Jehovah’s Will and Purposes ***Jesus

Again, those observing the words of this prophecy are pronounced “happy.” Then the invitation is given to all who hear to take the water of life free. And those who would add to or take away from the words of this prophecy are warned of the consequences. Upon hearing Jesus promising to come quickly, John replies, “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.”—Rev. 22:7-21.

*** g78 8/22 p. 28 Who Is “the Alpha and the Omega”? *** Jehovah

Finally, at Revelation 22:12, 13, we read: “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” This quotation appears among others that are ascribed to an angel and to Jesus Christ. Before these words are quoted in the book of Revelation, the angel who was instrumental in presenting the revelation to the apostle John spoke. (Rev. 22:8, 9) Then, after the quotation that begins with Revelation 22:12 and ends with the words of verse 15, we find the statement: “I, Jesus, sent my angel.” (Rev. 22:16) Since the context does not necessitate our attributing the words of Revelation 22:12, 13 either to the angel or to Jesus, they could have originated with another speaker. Consistent with the rest of the book of Revelation, “the Alpha and the Omega” must be the Almighty God. He is the One who comes in the capacity of a judge to reward and to punish individuals according to their works.

*** w78 10/1 p. 15 “Keep on the Watch” ….Jesus
6 Also, in his final revelation concerning “the things that must shortly take place,” Jesus again stresses the suddenness with which he comes:
“I am coming to you quickly . . . I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have.”—Rev. 2:16; 3:11.
“Look! I am coming quickly. . . . Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me. . . . Yes; I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:7, 12, 20)
In response to these last expressions of our Master, surely each one of us joins with the apostle John in saying: “Amen! Come, Lord
Jesus.”

*** w88 6/15 p. 20 Detest Utterly the World’s Disgraceful Course …Jehovah
Listen to how God himself describes, in his last recorded words in the Bible, the outcome for those who serve him and for those who do not: “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. . . . Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.”—Revelation 22:12-15.

1988 Rev Climax
*** re chap. 44 p. 316 Revelation and You ***Jehovah
6 Jehovah, the King of eternity, now addresses readers of Revelation for the last time in the prophecy, saying: “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.”—Revelation 22:12-15.

*** re chap. 44 p. 319 Revelation and You ***Jesus
15 Jesus now adds a final word of encouragement: “He that bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes; I am coming quickly.’” (Revelation 22:20a) Jesus is “the faithful and true witness.” (Revelation 3:14) If he bears witness to the visions of Revelation, they must be true. Both he and Jehovah God himself repeatedly stress the fact that they are coming “quickly,” or soon, Jesus here saying that for the fifth time. (Revelation 2:16; 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20)

Jehovah
19 Jehovah himself states: “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is.” (Revelation 22:12)

These last quotes make an interesting epilogue to their constant vacillations...

*** w53 1/1 p. 31 Questions from Readers ***
So we must be reasonable. When we see an expression that is applied to Jehovah several times in its unlimited sense, and then come across it again but not specifically indicated as applying to Jehovah, we cannot become flighty and switch the expression to Christ Jesus; and especially when we note that it is applied elsewhere, not in its unlimited sense, but only with definite limitation of meaning. Trinitarians try to capitalize on this expression to show it was used indiscriminately for either God or Christ, and in this way show God and Christ are the same. But logic and reason do not allow this, no more than do many other texts in the Bible.

*** w76 5/15 297-8 Preaching Christ-Through Envy or Goodwill? ***

It is a serious matter to represent God and Christ in one way, then find that our understanding of the major teachings and fundamental doctrines of the Scriptures was in error, and then after that, to go back to the very doctrines that, by years of study, we had thoroughly determined to be in error. Christians cannot be vacillating—‘wishy-washy’—about such fundamental teachings. What confidence can one put in the sincerity or judgment of such persons?

*** re chap. 44 p. 317 Revelation and You ***
After their death as humans, they gain entrance into New Jerusalem by resurrection. The 12 angels allow them in, while keeping out any who practice lies or uncleanness though claiming to have a heavenly hope

*** w59 10/1 p. 607 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers
• Who are the writers of the publications of the Watch Tower Society, and what are their educational qualifications?—M.D., U.S.A.
The literature published by the Watch Tower Society is published in the name of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. Regardless of who may write certain articles, they are checked carefully by members of the governing body before they are published; so they are properly viewed as coming from the Society

SirNose586

Wow, what a flip flop! Reminds me of the men of Sodom.

Somebody needs to call an electrician. The light is flickering on and off...

oldflame

the First and the Last, of the creation of God."—

That is just like a JW, add words to the scriptures. The scripture at Rev. 22:13 does not say the first and the last creation of God. It says ;

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Period ! There is nothing said in scriptures that states Christ was created at all....

I want to leave you JW's who still believe. Back when I was studying their religion well let me say this first I am not one who believes everything everyone tells me. I will go research before I will protest it is true first. I asked my JW mother one time, I said is there a group or organisation that approves scriptures before they are printed. My mother said yes there is and they say that our NWT is the most accurate of them all.

So I went to my NIV bible and looked up who was involved in publishing my NIV. I found a publishing address for Scofield who does many translations. I did a search for Scofield on the net and found a web site that led me to an email link to them. I wrote Scofield and asked them who was the group that approved scriptures ? As I was seeking information on a particular translation. I did not mention what bible I was talking about. I was written back sayting that there was no one group or organisation that did this and that some religions will print their own scriptures and approve them themselves. They also said and while you are asking us I must inform you that the NWT used by Jehovahs Witnesses is a very wrong translation to the scriptures.

So without even mentioning what bible I was talking about I got my answer to my research question. They told me that the NWT had been terribly stepped on and should not be used for study.

So now I know that you who are still in will say yep thats satan trying to defer us from the truth. If that is so then why would they say that about the NWT without any mention of any religion or scripture translations ? Nope I don't buy the JW beliefs not on your best day or my death bed.

turbonium

Happy Birthday ringo! I agree with oldflame. But, oldflame, that is very interesting. But I am confused, so basically scofeild just translated the greek/hebrew to english and no organization 'approved' of it? And just for an extra tibit of information they mentioned that the NIV is not good for research?

freebird2000

WOW How Familiar.All I can still say is. HUH?

Sherwood

GodHEAD is a stretch for Jesus considering the historic BLOODshed to force it down humanities throats.

Nevertheless, the context of the UNIQUE Resurrection regarding Jesus fits like a perfect hand to the perfect glove...

God being faithful to God means DOODOO in the Divine Plan....

Think about it, you Lovers of Jehovah GOD!

Love Ya,
Sherwood

Confession

Everyone's an expert on what cannot really be known.

That's rather how I feel, Wasanelder. I have a cassette recording of M. James Penton giving a talk to some ex-JWs. He identifies himself as a "God-believing Agnostic."

That's what I call myself now. I still believe in God--for primarily the same reasons I did as JW. But I have no problem not knowing everything about God. Further, I don't think anyone else does, and I will not be guilted into accepting someone else's belief.

Kristofer

thank you Ringo5, excellent research!

JW speechless!

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