Rejecting God or rejecting religion?

by kojo 66 Replies latest jw friends

  • kojo
    kojo

    I have read many posts on here and on other websites from people who were brought up or became immersed in a particular religion or belief system, who later ,often because of bad experiences with their religion, went to the opposite extreme of not believing in God at all. This often puzzles me because I wonder if people who reject a belief in God because of the hypocrisies they experienced in their former belief really are rejecting God or just a man-made organization which claims to be God's spokesman and has shown to be anything but.

    I was raised in a Presbyterian church which is about as traditional and conservative as you can get and my image of God was molded by that belief. I saw the services and people there as dead basically. Everyone just read off a bulletin and went through the same robotic motions every week. No one there really talked about God outside of church or seemed any different than those who never even went to church. It seemed everyone just followed a bunch of traditions without question in the hope God,if there, might see them as better people for it. It was as though people went more for social and community reasons (good for the kids and that kinda stuff) than out of any real longing to know God as a body of Christians.

    Later, when I was at an age where I was fighting my parents every Sunday morning about even going to church with them, I had a one on one encounter with God that changed my whole view of things. One night when my parents were out on the town, I pulled a Jehovah Witness book out of a drawer my mother had put in there and told me I should read it, "maybe it would do me some good" ,she's say. My mom was very naive and accepted the book from some JW's who came by earlier and in her mind they were probably just some nice "Christian,religious" folk, My mom really didnt know what they believed and if she did ,she'd probably take the book anyway just to be nice.

    Anyway, one night my curiousity led me to pull the book out and start reading it (I waited til noone was around to catch me). I read several scriptures which I had never read before and which turned my world upside down. To make a long story short, I felt confused and convicted by some of the Scriptures and started crying out to a God I wasnt even sure heard or cared. When I got to the point I couldn't cry anymore, I felt the most awesome peace and presence come over me. I almost thought I had left my body because it was so spiritual, like I was floating and overcome with love and lightness . I now know this is what being born-again means (even though this term is often used as a label now).

    Well, to make a long story short, I briefly studied the Watchtower books,thinking they'd help me grow spiritually--after all they were what led me to God in the first place. But when the things I read started contradicting my personal experiences with God ( ex: the belief Jesus is not God,when it was Jesus I cried out to and saved me) I came to realize they were not God's organization but God used their book to get to me just like he used a talking ass once. Since then I have been in several churches, evangelical, pentacostal, baptist, non-denominational, and visted several others and have seen many hypocrisies and legalisms and problems. I knew when I was being a hypocrite,even when others didn't but it never caused me to disbelieve or doubt God. In fact , the more problems I see in the church world the more it makes me want to seek direction and wisdom straight from God instead of through flawed human beings. Religion will often use God's name to boost themselves, their egos. Its easy to go to a service ,go through the motions,pretend to be super-Christian, then secretly do just the opposite of that belief.

    But ultimately when I pray and commune with God, I have peace,I have order, I'm more calm because I'm no longer controlled by outside circumstances and I realize He is still in control and very much real and alive for those who wish to know Him. I have a very positive view of God and all my negative experiences with "Christians" and religions and those who don't believe never changes that. For me to doubt the existence of God would be like doubting the existence of my mother or father. Once you know someone and let them in your heart and experience their unconditional love its impossible to doubt their existence even if you choose to reject them or stop communing with them. That is why when I read peoples posts about not believing in God anymore,it makes me wonder if they really "knew " God at all-not a religion, not a belief,not an organization,not a theory, but a one -on -One, life-changing,powerful, living ,vital, communion with the Creator of all things. I hear a lot about people and their relationship with their church or kingdom hall but hear little of people talking as though God was ever really real to them or able to be known as anything more than just a doctrine or tenet of their religious institution.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    Certainly there is a difference between simple religious beliefs, and actual experiences. One would come to the forefront as more significant than the other.

    Not discounting your experiences, I would like to ask: what if I were Hindu, and prayed to Krishna and experienced similar as you, what would you say to that? In other words: did your experience contract your sense of the Divine down to a specific deity or belief? Or did it expand it out to a vastness too huge to grasp?

    Just curious.

    j

  • poppers
    poppers

    "But ultimately when I pray and commune with God,"

    I would like to know what the nature of your "prayer" is that allows you to "commune with God". How do you go about it?

  • kojo
    kojo

    Well, the Scripture that says "be still,and know that I am God" best describes my prayers with God. Focusing on Him and deeper things instead of all the superficial things that we tend to focus so much of our time and energy on that really don't matter all that much. That and just being honest about my struggles, my weaknesses, and letting him work together all things for good.

    With the risk of being stoned (lol), I will say I believe that Jesus is the Way,the Truth,and the Life, not just "a" way. How can all religions be correct if they all contradict eachother? If the God of the Bible says
    "you shall have no other gods before me" you either believe Him at His word or you don't. You can't just say Jesus is one of many prophets when He said " I and my Father are one", and " I am the Way , The Truth, And the Life ,no one comes to the Father except throught Me". That pretty much sets him apart from all others, and many would say that Christianity is an intolerant belief because of that.

    Buddha didnt die for my sins, Mohammad didn't die for my sins, Charles Russell didnt fill me with peace, and comfort when I needed it ,neither did Ron Hubbard or a tele-evangelist. Jesus did and thats why I believe in Him. People can say I'm a fool, close-minded,unscientific,etc. but I know in whom I trust and believe and nothing can change that. I dont believe in treating people who dont believe like me as anything more or less than an equal. No one should be hated or treated less than anyone because they share different beliefs. But I'm also at a point where I dont feel like I need to apologize for stating what I believe ,especially if I'm being perfectly honest and not out to offend anyone or pull anyone into a debate. I believe in Jesus. I believe His Word. Doesnt make me special or any better than anyone else. There are those who don't share any belief in God who probably show a lot more love than those who do and I understand that. Ultimately God sees and knows the hearts of men and what is in them ,not me or anyone else.

  • poppers
    poppers

    Does one need the context of god or prayer in order to "be still and know" and still feel "awesome peace and presence"?

  • Van Gogh
    Van Gogh

    poppers:
    “Does one need the context of god or prayer in order to "be still and know" and still feel "awesome peace and presence?”
    In one word: Yes. I do. I’m an “orphan” and “lost son” seeking reconciliation with his “Father”
    I respect your point of view as it has a lot merit in terms of substance and as far as universally underlying principals is concerned. However, when it comes to the crunch, it seems to me that you and JT have a propensity to ask puzzling questions that I wish you guys would expand on a little, not being so elusive and esoterical as the object of your mantra eludes me. Please give us something more conclusive and tangible.

    kojo:
    To me, the message of Christ is the essence of existence, yet, as many ex-jaydubs, I am considering just living it, without entangling myself in any belief other than that (and certainly not any form of organized religion).
    I like your words. But as much I wish them to be true with all my heart, they are just as elusive as all the other opinions. I too cried out to Christ and God, in various combinations… but nothing was bestowed on me as was on you. I see no reason to ever definitely discard any belief in God… but the injustice and inequality in this world is inexplicable. Why did Jesus only present himself to you and not to another?
    When a jaydub, God was real to me… it was the only thing that kept me in the borg. But we were lied to and the answers to injustice proved to be false just like any other opinion. I do not like many (right-wing) Christians for some reason or another as they hide behind something else. I respect atheists and agnostics all the more for their morals, as they come from within.

  • Arthur
    Arthur
    often because of bad experiences with their religion, went to the opposite extreme of not believing in God at all. This often puzzles me because I wonder if people who reject a belief in God because of the hypocrisies they experienced in their former belief really are rejecting God or just a man-made organization which claims to be God's spokesman and has shown to be anything but.

    I personally went through a period in my life where I was an atheist. I was born and raised a JW and left the org because of no longer believing in it's theology. I guess I just rejected a belief in God because I saw no reason to believe. I had done a good amount of research into the archeological record, and saw the enormous evidence for evolution; and realized that much of the book of Genesis was mythological. I just reasoned: "how does believing in God change or improve my life?" But, later on, I began asking myself: "What if I'm wrong?" And then I began asking myself: "Shouldn't I be willing to at least admit that I don't know it all, and admit the possibility of Godly existence?"

    The spiritual experience that you wrote about is very rare; even amoung religious devotees. I have known many people who went through the same feelings, and crisis that you did, and cried out to God for help; never having the experience that you have.

    Perhaps more people would believe if they had the experience to back it up. But, when all they have to rely on is an ancient holy book, and church authorities telling them what to believe without the evidence to back it up; atheism doesn't seem so illogical after all. I certainly can't criticize them for reaching such a conclusion.

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate

    Hi Kojo and welcome to the Forum.

    I too have been blessed with a close personal relationship with Jesus. I am even more blessed to have found a church home that is filled with some posers as is any church, but a core group of lovely selfless kind believers in Christ. Worship in music is a big part of my desire to be with my fellow believers regularly. Today was great and my dear hubby had a keyboard solo on a very beautiful worship song. They really rock! We have lead acoustic guitar, bass, two sets of drums, one is different percussion instruments, and hubby on keyboards.

    My very first experience with Jesus was when I WAS a JW child, going out in service, and being left home alone alot. I was about 11. I was home alone reading the book of John, and at some point I got on my knees and said to Jesus, "I am not quite sure what you were explaining to Nicodemus, but whatever it means to be born again, please Jesus, I want it"

    That was my first experience with the Holy Spirit as He came over me. There are no words to describe that. I told my mom who was deeply JW at the time (pre 1975) and she had a fit. She thought she was doing what was best for me by telling me to never talk about that Jesus freak stuff again. I learned to keep this experience to myself, but I know, that He was with me from then on.

    Years later, it took a miracle to free my mind from the Watchtower's control, and once again that deep peace and quiet stillness came over me. Athiests would have us believe it is something in the brain, but I have documented medical proof of a miracle. I have even had people tell me, "great you healed yourself."

    My opinion on finding a true body of believers is to find a church that is love in action. Do they have programs to feed the hungry in the community? Homeless shelters? a food bank? Drug rehab program? As far as morality goes, how do you measure what morality is without a set of standards? Does someone have a list of athiest based hospitals, orphanages or refugee centers? I'm not saying that athiest are not good people or people who do good works. I'm saying that charity is the collective heart of the Christian faith, and one of the main teachings of Christ.

    Repent, that is number one. People who repent, confess and repent, will not continue to do the same wrongs habitually. They will see their fallibilities and become broken and humbled servants, not of an organization or to a church, but to the presence of God.

    Why some say they have done this and still nothing? dunno. All I can testify to is what God has done in my life. Like Kojo said, we're not "special". Trust may be an issue. Sometimes I don't feel God's presence in my life, but I trust He is still there. He always is.

  • poppers
    poppers

    From VG:
    "However, when it comes to the crunch, it seems to me that you and JT have a propensity to ask puzzling questions that I wish you guys would expand on a little, not being so elusive and esoterical as the object of your mantra eludes me. Please give us something more conclusive and tangible."

    Well, speaking for myself, I ask "puzzling questions" in order point out the futility in seeking answers in the mind. Most people relate to what they label "god" from a mental perspective. From that perspective a duality is created: the "me" who wishes to find "god". Both of these, "me" and "god", are constructs created in the mind. Most will believe in "god" or question the existence of "god" and come to a conclusion one way or the other, but few people even think to question the existence of the "me". If one were to honestly investigate the existence of "me" and find that it doesn't exist as a separate and distinct entity then what can be said about "god"? To find that the "me" isn't real destroys notions of what "god" is that is separate from "me".

    You said, "In one word: Yes. I do. I’m an “orphan” and “lost son” seeking reconciliation with his “Father”

    You've come to a conclusion, calling yourself an "orphan" and "lost son". Is this really true or only a belief you have? Perhaps there is simply a misunderstanding of what you actually are. Perhaps the "reconcilliation" that is sought with his "Father" is a desire to rediscover your true nature? Not knowing what you really are necessitates the creation of "something" outside yourself to fill that sense of lack. For some that sense of lack is sought in money, power, position, education, relationship, or what has been called "god". The investigation into one's real nature first resolves questions of things outside yourself, of "others", and of "god".

    The bottom line with me is: Find out what's really and actually true right here, right now. Or as JT will say, "what's looking out of these eyes". Can words be put on that or is one left with nothing to latch on to? I say that there is nothing for the mind to latch onto, but that doesn't mean one is left with a dead void. On the contrary, one will find a fullness and a presence that isn't separate from what you really are. One will find "something" that isn't dependent on any idea of "me" or "god", one will find something that is ever present and not dependent upon a cultural, religious, or philosophical viewpoint.

    I cannot give you anything "conclusive" to hang on to. But I can give pointers to what I speak of. Sense your own presence without the limits imposed by mental images of what you are. You exist - feel this existence. There is a "knowing" that you "are" that doesn't need words to be experienced. This "knowing" is the foundation upon which everything else unfolds. This "knowing" is by its very nature peaceful and is not separate from anything else. Or you can ask, "What am I really?" and then honestly investigate. See what you can find other than ideas of "me". See what is here when ideas of "me" fade, when thoughts fade.

  • riverofdeceit
    riverofdeceit

    to an atheist, saying they reject god, is like saying they reject leprechauns. To reject something it has to be there to be rejected. In order for you to have prayed to Jesus, someone had to tell you that there was a Jesus, be it in some sort of book or through verbal communication. Basically, you have to take some human's word for it that some sort of communication to them from some invisible source of power has taken place, which is what you are asking some of us to do as well.

    I imagine that you might secretly (or not so secretly) scoff at someone who claimed that they have a freind who is an invisible rabbit named Harry. How is not believing in Invisible friendly rabbits any different from not believing in all powerful invisible beings? I myself cannot reconcile the differences, other than there being more word of mouth support for the latter.

    I myself was raised as a Jehovah's Witness which claimed to be knowing the bible. It was already to be understood that the bible was a sure thing. They, as all bible based religions, use parts of the bible that speak of true things to verify that the entire bible is therefore true which seems to be pretty illogical. Kind of like, he told the truth about his name being Steven so therefore he is telling the truth about whether or not he can turn donuts into flying saucers.

    So, therefore, while I can't necessarily say that I reject God(any more than I reject leprechauns and even invisible rabbit friends), I absolutely do reject the idea of any bible gods as real,intelligent, all-knowing beings.

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