Sophistry Lessons—JW Baptismal Prerequisites

by AuldSoul 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    saki2fifty,

    You aren't an ass or a pretentious Pharisee wannabe. I wouldn't even want to rip your posts to shreds. The desire would never even come up into my heart, of your posts to date are any example.

    saki2fifty: Even though I feel as though I found some interesting things...

    Keep in mind that my problem is not with people independently choosing of their own volition to add more requirements for themselves than what the Bible requires. If someone simply wants to study prior to baptism, wants to attend meetings prior to baptism, etc. that is fine by me. Except for preaching. I see no justification in the Bible for anyone who is unbaptized to consider themselves qualified to preach.

    My problem here, is with an organization that claims to be God's Channel of communication with the earth teaching people that these extra things are requirements of God. My problem is a book that claims to help people understand what the Bible really teaches, i.e. what the Bible actively advocates in favor of and prohibits against, having within its pages this statement:

    To qualify for baptism, however, you must take definite steps.

    Since this statement is followed by many steps the Bible does not teach along with one step the Bible does teach (repentance and conversion), this statement is an untrue statement. The fact that the statement is untrue, in itself, does not make the statement a lie. A lie must be an untruth intended to deceive someone.

    The deceit enters in when we realize that if there WERE Scriptures to clearly support these requirements, those Scriptures would at least be cited in this chapter. Which means, an active attempt was made by someone, at some point in time, to find the Scriptures supporting this doctrine during the writing of this book. When the Scriptures were not found to support a required "step", the "step" should have been omitted from the publication (and doctrine).

    Each step that is unsupported by the Bible and was not omitted is a separate deceit. It is a lie. It isn't important to me that you see anything beyond the fact that they KNEW they had no Scriptural support and taught this doctrine as though its was Scriptural anyway. I hope you do see that.

    You see, from my perspective once you see that...the rest becomes sideline issues. The 607 BC doctrine becomes a curiosity, and little more, if one realizes that the organization supports teachings as though they are from the Bible even when they know they are not from the Bible.

    Reasoning From the Scriptures (1989) p. 283
    How can Jehovah’s visible organization in our day be identified?
    ...
    (3) It adheres closely to God’s inspired Word, basing all its teachings and standards of conduct on the Bible.—2 Tim. 3:16, 17.
    ...

    Please answer me just one question. After your personal study of the current JW doctrine on pre-baptismal requirements, would you be able to honestly tell a stranger that JWs base all their teachings on the Bible?

    If not, according to point #3 of the standard of judgment they use to rule out other organizations as Jehovah's visible organization in our day, it seems to me they rule themselves out, too. You may have come to a different conclusion than I did, but I hope as a result of your study you at least understand that my reasons for leaving were very logical.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    AuldSoul, man I thought you writing about something else. I'm putting together an essay on sophistry and using the '7 times' thread as reference, so I thought this was going to be something similar.

    I would recommend, as an example, and as another piece of Internet lingo, that readers check out wiki for the 'chewbacca defence'. A great example of sophistry, and quite entertaining, especially when thinking of the context of defenders of the indefensible.

    There's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_Defense

    steve

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    Gordy:As you say we can go on about 607 and UN etc, but the JW will pass it all off as apostate lies.

    Yeah, I know this is going to be off topic, however, I had a bad day at work, am half way through a bottle of wine, and AuldSoul's initial post is too lo------ng to read tonight, so:

    I was chatting to my mother(JW) on the phone. She knows I live in the Brooklyn Heights area, and have contact will some bethel boys, and she asked me about the NGO thing. I gave her the UN web site address of the letter from the NGO chief, and now she's convinced they got it wrong, and didn't admit it.

    steve

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    stevenyc,

    I'm not so sure the Chewbacca Defense really qualifies as an example of sophistry. Sophistry is supposed to make sense when seen with cursory scrutiny. It is only after digging deeper that the fallacies of logic and deceits are revealed.

    It seems to me that the Chewbacca Defense (which I saw when it first aired) is more like a strawman or a smoke screen. A sophist is usually very intelligent and appears to be grounded in rational argument; intellect is required to effectively deceive intelligent people. The Chewbacca Defense is when something completely idiotic is tossed in to confuse the issue, causing people to altogether give up on the idea of using logic.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    steve,

    She thinks the UN/DPI Section Chief got it wrong and won't admit it, or that the WTS got it wrong? If the latter, I agree with her.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    AuldSoul: I'm not so sure the Chewbacca Defense really qualifies as an example of sophistry. Sophistry is supposed to make sense when seen with cursory scrutiny. It is only after digging deeper that the fallacies of logic and deceits are revealed.

    The episode is a parody of the Cockran defence, which was sophism.

    :She thinks the UN/DPI Section Chief got it wrong and won't admit it, or that the WTS got it wrong? If the latter, I agree with her.

    She thinks the WTS got it wrong.

    steve

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    steve: She thinks the WTS got it wrong.

    Wow! That is a major hurdle to overcome. JWs frequently say the org makes mistakes but feel incredibly uncomfortable stating specific examples.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Well...I have waited a long time to bring this to the top of the pile again...and it still has no cogent Scriptural explanation...or even a semi-cogent attempt at explanation.

    According to Jehovah's Witnesses (and you can look it up for yourselves on the CD) this adding of burdens to worship that are not required BY GOD is called, "leaven of the Pharisees" and is to be strictly avoided by Christians. Basically, the Watchtower article that explained it said, in so many words, reject Jehovah's Witnesses as a false religion that is Pharisaical. I am certain that was not their intent, but it is the logical conclusion from what they wrote compared against an examination of their teachings and policies.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • Hoping4Change
    Hoping4Change

    A slightly tangential question - How do JW's view baptism that was performed by another church?

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Hoping4Change,

    They view it as unacceptable to God unless it was done a la JW requirements for baptism.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

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