Daniel's 3 year training and the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar.

by thirdwitness 91 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    It is absurd to say that Daniel 2 came before Daniel 1. It is illogical and unreasonable that Daniel was already made district ruler and chief prefect of all the wise men in the middle of his training. In fact, he would not have been looked for to be executed if he was still in training because he was not yet one of the wise men in the king's service. He was learning the ways and language of the Chaldeans.

    Your explanation is built upon sand and is irrational and the only reason you reach this conclusion is because you cannot admit JWs just may be right about it. If the situation was reverse and putting Daniel 1 before Daniel 2 disproved 607 there is no way that you would make the argument you are making. The same with the 40 year desolation of Egypt, the 70 year desolation of Judah, the 70 years upon Tyre. You have an opinion and you disregard what the Bible says to hold to that opinion. JWs on the other hand have reached the 607 date because it is supported by the logical reading of the scriptures.

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    Since no one seems to have anything new to add to this discussion except the illogical claim that Daniel 2 happened before Daniel 1 I have started a new discussion on just when the 70 years of service to the king of Babylon began.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/118272/1.ashx

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    Hey thirdwitness,

    Can you please clarify for me when you think the events of Daniel 1:18,19 occurred.

    I'm a little confused about the wording in relation to you definition, so if you could please let me know when these events took place I will get a full understanding of your interpretation.

    Thanks

    steve

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Timeline of Daniel 1 and 2 according to the Bible:

    Nebuchadnezzar's accession year, 606/5 B.C.; also Jehoiakim's 3rd year in Daniel's dating scheme, 4th year by Jewish dating:

    Nebuchadnezzar besieges Jerusalem about July 605, has tribute and captives taken off to Babylon. Captives include Daniel and other royal youths.

    Training of Daniel, three companions and other captives in ways and language of Babylonians starts.

    Nebuchanezzar's first year, 605/4 B.C. in Daniel's dating scheme:

    Training continues. Daniel, three companions and other captives distinguish themselves as extremely wise.

    Nebuchadnezzar's second year, 604/3 B.C. in Daniel's dating scheme:

    Along the way, God miraculously gives Daniel and companions knowledge and insight in all writing and wisdom, and understanding in all sorts of dreams and visions to Daniel.

    Nebuchadnezzar has a bad dream and decides to kill all wise men in Babylon. Daniel goes to Nebuchadnezzar and asks for time to interpret the dream. Daniel miraculously interprets the dream, and Nebuchadnezzar honors him by making him and his three companions great, and rulers over jurisdictional districts in Babylon. This occurs toward the end of Nebuchadnezzar's second year.

    After this, Nebuchadnezzar has Daniel, his three companions and all the rest of the trainees brought before him in his court. Nebuchadnezzar concludes that Daniel and his three companions are ten times better than the magic-practicing priests and conjurers of Babylon.

    Timeline of Daniel 1 and 2 according to the thirdwitless:

    Nebuchadnezzar's eighth year, 618/7 B.C. using Tishri dating in Watchtower chronology; also Jehoiakim's 3rd year as tributary king to Babylon, 4th year by Jewish dating:

    Nebuchadnezzar besieges Jerusalem about January through March 617, has tribute and captives taken off to Babylon about April. Captives include Daniel and other royal youths.

    Training of Daniel, three companions and other captives in ways and language of Babylonians starts.

    Nebuchanezzar's ninth year, 617/6 B.C. in Watchtower chronology:

    Training continues. Daniel, three companions and other captives distinguish themselves as extremely wise.

    Along the way, God miraculously gives Daniel and companions knowledge and insight in all writing and wisdom, and understanding in all sorts of dreams and visions to Daniel.

    Nebuchadnezzar's tenth year, 616/5 B.C. in Watchtower chronology:

    Training continues.

    Nebuchadnezzar's eleventh year, 615/4 B.C. in Watchtower chronology:

    Nebuchadnezzar has Daniel, his three companions and all the rest of the trainees brought before him in his court. Nebuchadnezzar concludes that Daniel and his three companions are ten times better than the magic-practicing priests and conjurers of Babylon.

    Nebuchadnezzar immediately forgets the existence of Daniel and this three companions.

    Nebuchadnezzar has a bad dream and decides to kill all wise men in Babylon, including Daniel whom he has forgotten. Daniel goes to Nebuchadnezzar and asks for time to interpret the dream. Daniel miraculously interprets the dream, and Nebuchadnezzar honors him by making him and his three companions great, and rulers over jurisdictional districts in Babylon.

    Now which of the above timelines actually sticks to what the Bible actually says? The answer is obvious.

    According to thirdwitless, immediately after concluding that Daniel is ten times better in wisdom and interpreting dreams than the Babylonian conjurers, Nebuchadnezzar forgets that they exist. Then he issues orders to kill them along with the conjurers. How stupid this claim is!

    AlanF

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere

    Thirdwitness, I have a Bible question. How long did Babylon have World Power? Bet I don't get an answer.

  • belbab
    belbab

    Third Witness: Does my life and the lives of ninety nine percent of the world’s population depend on the exact date of the graduation of four child honor students some 2500 years ago? Tell me it isn’t so.

    Please consider the following comments: .

    Dan 1:5 KJV And the king appointed them a daily provision of the king's meat, and of the wine which he drank: so nourishing them three years, that at the end thereof they might stand before the king.

    The instructions of the King was that a scholarship for certain brilliant Jewish students were to be granted. He said that he would provide for them for three years, period. Four of the students were far more brilliant than their pimply- faced classmates. Their instructor was very pleased with the four. Why would he wait for the entire three years, before presenting them to the king? Perhaps the king did an early check up to see how his investment was doing.

    Dan 1:18 KJB Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar.

    Why does the text not say, at the end of three years, but rather, days? The end result that the King wanted was that they be able to “stand” before him in the court. I maintain his instructions, paraphrasing, were: take as long as it takes, but if they can’t do it within three years then forget it. The instructor showed fear of the King when Daniel wanted to eat Kosher food. He did not want any dalliance in presenting the students to the king. There are texts where it says that

    The instructor presented the best students as soon as they met the conditions. Daniel, that is, Belteshazzer, was just one of a group.

    Dan 1:20 KJV And in all matters of wisdom [and] understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians [and] astrologers that [were] in all his realm.

    There is no reason the the King would “know” Daniel, he was part of the group that were found better than all of his own wise men.

    Chap Two of Daniel:

    And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.

    Note the “and”, a continuation of the narrative. Note that in the second year, he dreamed dreams, period. Note it says dreams, plural, note he had insomnia. All this shows a continuance of time. He had nightmares, mental disturbances, and couldn’t sleep for any numbers of days. Finally, he was so desperate that he was ready to wipe out all his “wise” men if they didn’t show him the interpretation of his dream.

    In verse two, it says “commanded to call”, again time for the command to take effect is allowed. Note that the wise men spoke in Syriak, that is Aramaic, which for me indicates they had a closed shop, no ten-times-wiser Jewish smart asses were invited. (See other texts in Daniel, where the locals were hostile to the Jewish officials.)

    In verse seven, it says they, (the wise men) answered again. The word again can mean a second time and can mean the wise men were allowed some time to convene a collective answer for the king. Later in the chapter, The King allows Daniel time to seek out an interpretation for his dream, why would it be different for his own wise men?

    Verse 8, says, I know of certainty that ye would gain time. They were stalling for time.

    Verse 9: But if ye will not make known unto me the dream, [there is but] one decree for you: for ye have prepared lying and corrupt words to speak before me, till the time be changed: therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that ye can shew me the interpretation thereof.

    To issue an official decree and proclaim it nation wide, would take further time. was aware that his councilors, were speaking lying and corrupt words, till the time be changed. They were hoping that time and circumstance would delay the idiocy of the king.

    Finally , thoroughly pissed off, orders a decree, it is published officially and the executioner gets his butt going and not relishing the job, seeks to put it into effect. It is only then that the Chaldeans bring the smart-assed Jews into the picture; if they are getting the axe so will these ten-times-smarter group, who seemingly obtained the Kings favor, get it also. It could be, also, that it was that Daniel, who knows visions and dreams, in the original discussion, precipitated misgivings in ’s subconscious that gave origin the dreams in the first place. Also it is possible that the wise men thought that the four Jews were the golden-hair boys of , and they thought that when found out that they were to be killed that he would cancel the decree.

    I find no discrepancies in these chapters. Allan if in his post has calculated that two years and three months could have passed of the designated three years. The time sequence of chapter two, could very easily lasted seven months more, if you really insist that three years are necessary for your interpretations of the Bible.

    belbab, of the ‘if any man suffer as an Apostate , let him not be ashamed’ class

  • saki2fifty
    saki2fifty

    Just an observation here, but for every response that Thirdwitness puts out, he is bombarded with 10 in return... with most wanting responses themselves. Might be more productive if the debate were between fewer people... a one on one would be good to see. This would force getting an answer that one is looking for.

    Again, just an observation.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    saki2fifty said:

    : Just an observation here, but for every response that Thirdwitness puts out, he is bombarded with 10 in return... with most wanting responses themselves. Might be more productive if the debate were between fewer people... a one on one would be good to see. This would force getting an answer that one is looking for.

    Not really. The guy is evasive and fails to answer almost all direct questions and challenges. He misrepresents peoples' arguments and even the Bible. Why would cutting responses down to just one poster change that?

    Furthermore, posters here are entirely independent. None of us has the time or even desire to collaborate with others, except through the medium of this board. It is exactly this kind of free discussion that ultimately results in truth being found -- i.e., this is the scientific method -- since claims are exposed to the fire of many minds examining every detail -- all without fear of being disfellowshipped for disagreeing with some central authority. Arguments stand on their own merit, not on the authority of some leader.

    AlanF

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    thirdwitless, you have a new challenge, one you might try dealing with:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/118291/1.ashx "Fact Jews Returned In 538 BC Kills Off Watchtower Chronology"

    You will not be able to do anything except rant and rave, and dismiss out of hand -- with your usual lack of explanation and ad hominems -- the arguments I've given.

    AlanF

  • saki2fifty
    saki2fifty
    Why would cutting responses down to just one poster change that?

    Furthermore, posters here are entirely independent. None of us has the time...

    I understand your point. However, I noticed that he is being bombarded with questions from all directions, and personally I dont see how he can answer all of the lengthy responses that has come his way... for he too may not have the time. And for that... it appears as though he's being criticized.

    No, i'm not siding, and even dare not to. Just an innocent bystander.

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