opusdei1972 I read somewhere that its was said that if one did not except the book Finishmystery and all its teachings then he was evil or a raving apostate or something bad not just the elders either. Wish I could find that one.
CO has been coming to my door. Would like 1 or 2 solid and easy arguments.
by The Laser Viking 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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The Laser Viking
I completely agree. I was once a person who defended the Witnesses and saw myself as intelligent and biased and open minded......Things I still see as true about myself.....
Not everyone is in on the joke......
Many people are well meaning, and somewhat reasonable and smart individuals who are blinded for a wide variety of reasons and who have been misled.
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The Laser Viking
In thinking about the subject I thought about all the people who were disfellowshipped and shunned and had their children and friends turn against them for standing up for what the bible actually says but the WTS currently was not teaching as Truth......just to have that Truth change and possibly agree with former "apostates." And that was all part of God's plan and was testing who would be loyal to the WTS??
Gross
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Island Man
Tell him that a careful examination of the history of the organization causes you to believe that it matches those Jesus warned not to go after, at Luke 21:8.
What you can do is read Luke 21:8 from the RSV and then draw to his attention that one of the early publications of JWs that contained many false end time predictions was a volume of Studies In the Scriptures entitled "The Time Is At Hand!"
Tell him you are very convinced that Watchtower matches Luke 21:8 and so you cannot in good conscience follow the organization when Jesus told his followers not to go after such ones. Here's a video worth watching to help you see what I'm saying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSYBUifr7Y0
Expect him to misuse Proverbs 4:18 to give the usual Watchtower propaganda cliche about the light getting brighter. Research the real meaning of Proverbs 4:18 so you will be prepared to refute this tired, worn out cliche. You can also respond to it by reading for him 2 Timothy 3:7 and Ephesians 4:14 and telling him that those texts more accurately describe the situation with JWs.
Expect him to also use Acts 1:6,7 where the apostles are asking Jesus if he's restoring the kingdom at this time, to suggest that the apostles had wrong expectations and were not condemned and the situation is the same with JWs. You can respond by telling him the situation is not the same with JWs. First, the apostles were not yet anointed with the holy spirit - the spirit of truth - so they had a good excuse for not fully understand all things. By contrast, the JW leadership has always claimed to be anointed during the times they taught falsehoods. Secondly, the apostles did not go throughout Jerusalem confidently publishing a false message about the kingdom being restored at that time, No. They humbly came to Jesus and asked him a question. This is very different from Watchtower confidently publishing its false predictions far and wide.
Expect him to also use an argument like this:
"Well who else has the truth? Where else can we go? Who is Jehovah's organization today? Jehovah has always had an organization so, if not JWs then who else?".
This is meant to in effect say that you should stick with JWs just because you can't think of or find a better alternative and/or that even though JWs have faults they're the least evil of all the churches in error.
The way to refute this is to simply ask him which organization Jehovah was using during the centuries since the apostasy and before C.T. Russel's time. He would have to admit that there was no God-approved organization on earth that time. Watchtower said as much in a recent study edition studied a few weeks ago at the Kingdom Hall.
Once this point has been made you then tell him that since true christians existed among the wheat for all those centuries without there being a God-approved organization then it is very plausible that there is still no true organization on earth today - only individual true christians existing in the midst of wheat. You can then mention Jesus' parable of the wheat and the weeds and mention how the wheat grow together with the weeds until the end, that Jesus never mentioned the wheat being transplanted to a different field free of weeds and growing there for a while before being harvested. Jesus mentioned the wheat being removed from the field (which pictures earth) to the storehouse (heaven). This shows that the separating comes at the very end when Jesus judges the wicked and brings the righteous anointed christians to heaven.
Mention that an honest reading of the parable indicates that there will not be any true organization just erroneous organizations with wheat and weeds in them, and the separating of the wheat and the weeds clearly comes at the very end during armageddon/great tribulation. Jesus never mentioned a restoration before the end, neither did Paul, when he spoke of the coming apostasy and the man of lawlessness.
He will probably retort by citing texts in Daniel that talk about the righteous roving about and true knowledge becoming abundant in the time of the end. The way you refute this is simple. You just state that many individual true christians are getting an accurate understanding of the bible and leaving Watchtower and other false religious organizations. Additionally, since we don't know exactly when the end will come there's no way of saying for certain that that text is undergoing fulfillment in the present. It may still be a text that is to be fulfilled further in the future before the end comes.
Tell him that Watchtower is stressing organization while the bible is not and the reason why Watchtower stresses organization is because they want to keep themselves relevant and keep all JWs dependent on them and giving them their time and money to keep the organization afloat. The organization is twisting scripture to serve its own interests.
Tell him that contrary to what Watchtower self-servingly says, a hierarchical organization headed by a small group of men is not required to accomplish the global preaching work. Jehovah and Jesus can see every corner of the globe and know exactly where the message needs to be preached. And so they can do all the organizing in heaven and implement on earth by using angels and holy spirit to direct individual true christians throughout the globe to preach when and where they wish. This is what the book of Acts shows. Jesus used holy spirit and angels to direct the preaching work - not a hierarchical organization of men.
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DATA-DOG
Well, those in the 80's who said there was no slave "class" were accused of deluding themselves or some such nonsense. Now....it's the truth. LOL!!!
DD
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breakfast of champions
Solid easy argument 1): Please leave my property now.
Solid easy argument 2): Please leave my property now and do not come back.
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Ding
Tell him that since The Finished Mystery was the "latest truth" published by the WTS at the time of Jesus' inspection in 1918, it is certainly wise to read it to see if there is any way that Jesus could consider it good spiritual food.
Get a PDF file of that book along with a list of nonsensical statements (such as Leviathan being the locomotive and Michael being the Pope), and show them to him. Ask him to explain to you (1) how the leaders of God's organization could have believed and taught that stuff and (2) why Jesus would ever designate an organization that published such nonsense to be his "faithful and wise servant."
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The Laser Viking
As I do not think I will "save" anyone from the org, I also do not want to just yell "get off my stoop!"
I want to at least make a well thought out stand that can be heard and understood.
Thanks Island Man for that response. I will need to look up those scriptures and think about the possible arguments that the CO may raise.
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Oubliette
Laser Viking: I am looking for one or two solid and basic points that I can make that would demand an answer/explanation.
- Why can't the leaders of this religion decide upon a consistent definition/understanding of the relatively common word: "generation"?
- If the current understanding of the FDS is correct, then what was the prior understanding?
- Why does the organization now have a TV station similar to the 700 Club and other religions when they have lambasted televangelists for decades?
- What would you think of me if I said, "The Watchtower does not have any authority over me," or "I do not answer to the Watchtower"? That's what I thought you'd say. So why then did Gerrit Lösch, the longest standing current member of the Governing Body, state that in a sworn Declaration to the California Superior Court, County of San Diego on February 4th, 2014?
NOTES:
FYI:The Watchtower has promoted six different and contradictory explanations of what the expression "this generation" means.
“I do not answer to Watchtower” – Stunning Gerrit Lösch declaration revealed
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/i-do-not-answer-to-watchtower-stunning-gerrit-losch-declaration-revealed/comment-page-2 -
Island Man
Another "proof" that the C.O. is likely to bring up is the house to house preaching work of JWs. 'Who else is doing that?' he may ask.
You simply tell him that there is not a single account in all the bible portraying Jesus or the apostles systematically going from house to house preaching to people at the door. All the narratives describe public preaching - the open outdoors, the marketplace, the synagogue, the temple, etc.
Interestingly, Jesus' own words at John 18:20 refutes the Watchtower suggestion that he ever went house to house preaching to people at their door.:
"Jesus answered him: “I have spoken to the world publicly. I always taught in a synagogue and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret. " - John 18:20
Jesus' direction to his apostles about greeting the household had nothing to do with preaching from house to house, Jesus was schooling them on finding a suitable place of lodging in the village or city that they went in to preach publicly. This is why he tells them not to transfer from house to house - he was telling them not to abandon the hospitality of a modest home owner to go to a more comfortable house.
The showing of hospitality was a privilege in bible times and this is why Jesus told his followers that in whichever village or city they entered, search out who is deserving [of the privilege of being their hosts] and stay there (i.e. lodge there as a guest) until they leave. Jesus did the same thing when he traveled from city to city. He would always stay at the home of someone. You can point to the account of when he went to Jericho and he found Zachaeus to be deserving of the privilege of hosting him. Others in the crowed took offence at Zachaeus - a tax collector - being given this privilege. (Luke 19:1-10)
The passing reference in Acts where Paul speaks about teaching and preaching from "house to house" is likely referring to him visiting one congregation after another. He traveled from congregation to congregation all of which convened in the private houses of believers. Thus his statement of teaching from house to house is essentially another way of saying he taught from congregation to congregation.
But the Greek text actually just says "kata oikon" ("according to house") and may simply mean "in private homes". The exact same Greek expression is used at Acts 2:46 where the NWT translates it as "in private homes". So the earlier Acts reference to the apostles preaching in the temple and "from house to house" (NWT) simply means they preached in the temple and in the homes of believers - at early congregation meetings where they met for prayer and the taking of meals together. (Acts 2:46)
All christian denominations are involved in preaching but not all use the method of house to house and the bible does not mandate the specific method of house to house. So it is dishonest of Watchtower and JWs to suggest that only they are involved in the preaching work. Additionally, the bible shows that, contrary to what JWs claim, not all christians are called to the work of being a formal public evangelizer:
"And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers," - Ephesians 4:11