The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible (page 99)

PMJ2

well hillary.your kinda basing your faith on the assumption that Revelation was wrote before 70ce.because if it was wrote at the very end of the first century it messes up your belief that the last days were for the first century only.so are you telling me all the events in revelation happened in the first century?

thirdwitness

I will make a bold prediction. If the end don't come very soon there will be more and more earthquakes since 1914 joining the over 50,000 deaths club. And so the percentage of Earthquakes since 1914 killing over 50,000 will continue to rise.

Fisherman

Does very soon mean another 28 years or another 2000 years?

In Jesus day, followers preached, the kingdom of God is at your door. In hebrew door is a homonym for generation.

If the end gets any closer it is going to catch us from behind

Frank75

Frank75 said:

What tricky propaganda. Noah and his immediate family are called “Jehovah’s Servants” are they? What is that supposed to convey?
I say, unbelievable! Is a reply to this even necessary?
Heb 12:1

So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us,

Who was included in that cloud of Jehovah's witnesses?

Heb 11: 7 By faith Noah , after being given divine warning of things not yet beheld, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this [faith] he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness that is according to faith.

2 Peter 2: 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness , safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; I am going to have to stop answering ridiculous comments. Sorry, I just don't have the time. I think honest ones can easily see these kind of comments for what they are without anyone pointing it out.

Give me a break Thirdwitness. The implication you were making is clear (as was born out in your later posted comments about the "Organizational Ark") Namely, that Noah was somehow gathered into a collective known as “Jehovah’s Servants” organizationally at that time.

What visible organization was Abel, Enoch, Abraham, Sarah, Noah, Moses, Rahab, Job and many others forced to join under threat of disfellowshipping in order to have Gods approval?
Even during the exodus and colonizing of Palestine

I will give you the ordered people of the nation of as a God ordained organization of sorts, and then during that “age” close association could be argued as a requirement, but even with its legitimacy it was an utter failure in bringing a people of faith to the feet of the promised Messiah. Even humble men such as David, Saul and wise Solomon eventually became corrupt. Your religion is also corrupt because it attempts to build a man made structure for saving people through a creed and adherence to a schedule of works administered and designed by the same corrupt humans. Your religion like so many others is likewise a complete failure in bringing people to faith and righteousness. Remember I was a member for many years so I saw the failure in your organizational system that mercilessly judges people by their meeting attendance and their field service report.
People who have faith in God and the bible and follow their conscience because of it, do so at their peril in your religion. It is the only real point Ray Franz tries to establish in his book COC.

Hebrews cloud of witnesses includes prophets. What I love hearing response form JW’s is how would the Watchtower respond to Jesus coming up through the ranks as a simple blue collar worker and then speaking out against wrong views and injustices, openly and publicly? He would be tossed out in a minute. Much faster than the Jews did it.

What does it do to any who are moved by the bible and love for truth to speak out on different problems within the JW religion just as many loyal active JW’s in this forum point out here? The only difference is they do it privately in anonymity? The answer is obvious.

That’s right, they put them to death (by df’ing) just like the Jews did to their prophets.

You are likely experiencing this pressure now in whatever congregation you are in. Many of the arguments YOU make are the same ones that I made when I was in your shoes so many years ago. It is why you are here; as you know you cannot have these discussions with anyone in your congregation, likely not even your wife. Even when you speak in support of JW doctrines to most JW’s they just get scared.
The truth is that it is as individuals such as Abel, Enoch, Noah and Abraham that we are found righteous or to be his servants. Not in a collective as if God is forced to accept you because you are a member. This is why John wrote Christians:

(1 John 2:26-29) 26 These things I write YOU about those who are trying to mislead YOU. 27 And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him. 28 So now, little children, remain in union with him, that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not be shamed away from him at his presence. 29 If YOU know that he is righteous, YOU gain the knowledge that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him.

If you brought this up in a JW meeting they would throw you out, because John clearly proves the lie of needing a faithful and discreet slave class to teach us. If John was here today he would warn you people that you have simply been “mislead”.

Likewise true Christians are to bear witness to Jesus, but you knew that even though you bring up Jehovah's Witnesses above..

(1 Corinthians 1:5-7) . . .that in everything YOU have been enriched in him, in full ability to speak and in full knowledge, 6 even as the witness about the Christ has been rendered firm among YOU, 7 so that YOU do not fall short in any gift at all, while YOU are eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Revelation 1:9) 9 I John, YOUR brother and a sharer with YOU in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in company with Jesus, came to be in the isle that is called Pat´mos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus. . .
(Revelation 12:17) . . .And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.
(Revelation 17:6) 6 And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. . .
(Revelation 19:10) . . .All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.” (Revelation 20:4) . . .Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image. . .

Notice the negative comment about worshipping the wild beast. Of course you know by now that your precious Watchtower Organization was in bed with this wild beast for 10 years. And only left after former members exposed them to you people who come to these websites even though you are told not to!!

Next time you are at an assembly, take out your notepad and count out the number of times that the following names are mentioned.

Jehovah
Jesus
Jehovah’s Organization (Aka watchtower society)
Governing Body
Chairman’s name Then decide for yourself if you people are witnesses of Jesus as the disciples were, even of Jehovah. Likely you will discover that the only ones receiving glory and being born witness too is the Watchtower Society, its publications and prominent members who may be visiting

That all aside, you ignore the points I made in the body of my post.

Frank75

Fisherman

Although John says in Rev "..he made us to be a kingdom..." , John'.s role on earth at that time was not a king priest.. That was to occur in the future.

The description in Rev of the woman giving birth and satan kicked out of heaven also seems to be in the future and not in the past.

AuldSoul

There are many more.

Many more translations of the same verse that all amke the same point? I agree, thirdwitness. And the comment does not necessitate that Jesus was still waiting at the writing of Hebrews 10. That is what you have missed. Repeatedly. Ephesians states directly that he already HAS all things subjected to him. Hebrews 5-7 states directly he is already a high priest after the manner of Melchizedek.

Was he at the point of resurrection? No. Was he by the time Hebrews and Ephesians were written? Yes. Did he await until his enemies were placed as a stool for his feet? Yes. After they were placed as a stool for his feet, prior to the writing of Ephesians and Hebrews, he was no longer waitiing.

Since the same book of the Bible you are quoting from directly contradicts your interpretation of Hebrews 10, and since another interpretation is allowed from the wording, you are wrong in your interpretation. It is simply a happy accident that the Watchtower Society agrees with your interpretation and are, therefore, also wrong.

Revelation 1:4, 5 is offered before John says he was in the Lord's day. Therefore, what he says there is not within the Lord's day. But then, you have stopped answering my questions. You had to do so, or otherwise everyone would know you knew that already. You are a non-responsive ass. I have responded directly to every single nebulously defined "problem" you have raised and you have ignored many of my direct questions.

AuldSoul

Fisherman,

I am not sold because the book of REV seeems to show jesus' kingdom yet into the future.

I recommend that you write down what you believe about rulership and authority. In separate columns. Get your opinion on the understanding of those two concepts well in mind. Then read the Christian Greek Scriptures without using any Watchtower Society literature or apostate literature. Make note of every instance that discusses rulership or authority and study out what the verses have to say.

That is what a Bible student does if they want to know about a specific subject in the Bible. You will come away with a completely different perspective than you have now. Guaranteed.

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

AuldSoul

pmj2,

"Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning."

I imagine you think that was written to bolster your confidence in the doctrine of a religion that didn't peep its head out of its weasel hole until 1879, don't you? Hee-hee! What a riot.

The disciples were proclaiming the presence as being upon the people in the First Century. ut you wouldn't know that unless you stepped outside of approved JW literature.

AuldSoul

jayhawk1

In a nutshell:
1914:
The 7 times of trampling ended. Daniel 4.
Presence or days of Christ began. Matt 24, Luke 17.
Christ waiting came to an end, a rod of rulership was given him, from Zion he came forth, and his enemies were placed as a stool for his feet. Heb 10:13. Psalms 110.
Christ was given a crown and his ride on the white horse began. Revelation 6.
Christ secured kingly power. Luke 19.
Michael began standing up in behalf of his people. Daniel 12.
In the days of the final king the stone was cut out that became a huge mountain. Daniel 2:44.
The Son of man gained access to God's throne and received kingdom and power in the days of the little horn that became great. Daniel 7:13,14.
The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ. Rev 11:15.
Jehovah God took his great power and begun ruling as king. Rev 11:17. It came to pass the power and the kingdom of God and the authority of his Christ, because Satan was hurled down. Rev 12:10.
It is very simple. Nothing complicated here.

Thirdwitness, I didn't say you couldn't explain the JW doctrine on the Gentile Times. I basically said most publishers and a great many Elders can't explain the doctrine without leaning on some Watchtower text for support. What was shown me by local JWs went something like this... "Turn to page ____ in the Live Forever book and follow along as I read paragraph ________." No sir, I will never accuse you of not knowing your JW doctrine. I am convinced the JW doctrine is wrong in the first place. Keep in mind this is a doctrine I once believed just like you still do.

hillary_step

PMJ,

well hillary.your kinda basing your faith on the assumption that Revelation was wrote before 70ce.because if it was wrote at the very end of the first century it messes up your belief that the last days were for the first century only.so are you telling me all the events in revelation happened in the first century?

No PMJ, I am entering this without any assumptions, as not being a believer it matters not a jot to my 'faith' when the Reveleation was written. This has nothing to do with my 'faith'. it has to do with the weight of evidence. What I am suggesting to you is that you owe it to yourself, not just to accept what you have been fed by the WTS but to critically question what you have been fed. I am suggesting that you lay aside your agenda and look at this from a perspective that has no assumptions added to it. Remember, assumptions are the death of honest investigation.

So, why not research the exponents of the early dating of Revelation, a stance to which most modern Biblical scholars are moving, and then present your reasons as to why you do not accept this viewpoint, if you do not. For example, how would you deal with the internal evidence presented in the links that I noted in my previous post? This internal evidence is compelling and needs to be dealt with for an honest evaluation of the issue. Would you not agree with this? Ignoring this issue will not make it go away, the light still shines if you hide your eyes. ThirdWitness has proved himself incapable of real scholarship as he is unable to think beyond the tip of his agenda. I hope that you can present a more valuable defence for your faith than he does. This requires more than just saying 'we are right, you are wrong' and hanging scriptures around this flawed methodology. It requires an honest heart and a brain without preconceptions. Best regards - HS

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

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