by BlackSwan of Memphis 55 Replies latest jw friends
I only believe something that can be proven. At this point, without an appearance from a 'supreme one' I know that we can't know for sure or prove that a god really exists.
I grew tired of the arguments such as: "look at how nice and wonderful everything is! There must be a god that created us!" That type of 'logic' is not evidence that a god exists.
I'm open to the possibility of a god, but I can't prove that one exists, therefore I consider myself agnostic.
In my case it was mainly the internal inconsistency of the Bible, and the fact that all evidence points to it being written by people who wanted to believe they had God on their side in either physical or philosophical warfare. Also, I was generally pissed about the whole Faith issue. I don't think it's very loving for a god to demand faith from it's subjects since there is no other reason for it than to get people to do anything without thinking. Faith is the antithesis of rational thought, and therefore extremely dangerous and to be used in moderation.
I became agnostic for the 2nd time, post JW because I determined to follow the facts no matter where they lead me...and I discovered they always lead me back to my own perceptions, my own minds inventions, my own opinions, my own beliefs, in short, everything leads me to conclude that I can never be sure of any objective reality outside of my own existance... I am the dreamer dreaming because I cannot be sure of being anything else .(^_^). <<looks like the jettisons robot maid, dont it?
I consider myself an atheist nowadays.
I was probably an agnostic when the jws first contacted mr, but of course all that changed when I became indoctrinated with their beliefs. Since discovering the truth about wts teachings, I have lost all faith in even the possibilty of there being a god.
How did you get to the point where you are at now?
Was it primarily new information that made you rethink religion and God?
Or was it the basic philosophy that turned you off?
God doesn't answer prayers, or he hasn't mine anyway, or the prayers of people starving to death etc etc?
I grew up my whole life wanting to believe in god, so I told myself and others that I did. I was forced to attend various churches growing up and had even attended catholic school. Basically, as long as I can remember, I never really believed in any gods.
The journey on accepting who I am and what I don't believe while living in a world that bases their lives around their own beliefs in god is the interesting part.
An understanding of scientific discoveries and methods coupled with a critical look at the Bible and religion have led me to agnosticism leaning towards atheism. I remember reading on the Talk Origins website about the principle of falsifiability. If a statement is made that can be proven false by observation, then it is falsifiable. That, to me, is an important concept because anyone could make the statement that a god or gods created the Earth and the Universe five minutes ago and made everything look like it has been here for billions of years. It is not falsifiable and therefore, not believable. Creationism is not falsifiable, because at some point in their arguments, creationists insert the 'god' idea. Well, 'god' could have done anything and you wouldn't know it unless you observed 'it' doing it.
I would also state that I have a growing awareness of just how insignificant we really are. Oh, we are important in our own eyes, very human centered indeed. After all, the church used to teach that the Earth was the center of the universe. I try to grasp the scale of time and space, and I can't help but think that the moment each of us has in existence is very precious, very brief, like sparks that rise from a large camp fire, and then we go out and are no more. And then I wonder, is that all there is? Who will know I ever existed in a thousand years? A million years? A thousand million years? Will there be another species to study us when we have become extinct? Does it matter?
Dave
I think the intellectually honest approach is to just admit we cannot know for sure whether there is a God with a purpose for us. Hence, agnosticism.
This seems fair. Any time I've tried to say that there's no god based on the idea that he's not doing anything, it's met with arguments like:
1) How do YOU know he's not doing anything? Maybe he's maneuvering things to bring about salvation on his own time table, and not yours.
2) Why should god do anything? Who are you to say what an almighty god would decide is the right thing to do?
Those are unarguable arguments, since I don't have any almighty gods lying around that I can talk to about it. (None that talk back at least!)
In the end I haven't seen any evidence for a god, where the definition of "god" has any meaning. On the other hand, I see abundant evidence that such a god doesn't exist. The most striking of this is the many missed opportunities to prevent disasters.
A god that sits by and watches sentient creatures slaughtered by forces he could easily stop either doesn't exist, or isn't a god I'd want to know anyway.
So for me, no god. And thus atheism. But it's only enough of an argument to convince me, not something I'd use on someone else.
Dave
I think life is a journey and when one awakens they realize where they are now and continue on the journey. The kingdom hall is a place that stiffles ones senses and lulls them into sleep.
point two everybodys working an angle I think the lawyers call it quid quo pro. Whats in it for you?
I spent 31 years at the hall before I awoke enough to leave. I would never go back. I have night mares still about having to go to a boring meeting. And the last time I was in a hall was 1983.
I think the catalyst to what woke me up was 1975 as I was a teenager and it altered my life plans and direction. I didnt take school seriously, no college. I pioneered instead of bettering myself and family, wife and child. By 1983 with no armegeddon their house of cards fell down in my life and I walked away.
Great question. I've got so much to tell or reasons to give, but instead of boring you I'll say, simply, that it's what I believe. I have faith that there is no reason to have faith.
I prayed a lot too and not one time was a prayer answered to give me any hope that there was a grand diety.
I assume my degree in Biology and hangin' around with Analytical Scientist didn't help either. Oh, and that whole Jehobee Cult thing really threw me for a loop. Once I got to college and realized that Worldy [sic] people were not the demons that I had been taught, it became pretty clear to me.
I love it when a Dub finds out that I don't believe/care anything. They look outside and say, "look at that tree. Do you think it just happened without Jehovah's hand?" Yep. It's like a vacuum tube in their tiny brain pops.
My atheism started when I first took a good look at the reliability of the Bible and realized, as someone mentioned, that it's a collection of myth and history and whatever, but certainly not inspired of God.
With the Bible gone, science and logical reasoning made God, gods and demons just disappear. As someone mentioned in another thread, being atheist doesn't mean your against god, it simply means you don't believe in god. Being atheist is the same as being aleprechaun - I simply don't believe that leprechauns exist due to a lack of solid evidence. When one comes dancing out of the woods behind the house, I'll gladly change my mind!
S4
