Evolution still bugs me

by Geronimo 91 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    "Even so humans have a spiritual dimension and can't be complete without it as many psychologists admit"

    No greendawn, speaking for myself and the majority of my friends and colleagues. We have NO "spiritual dimension". Which psychologists are you referring to? Kindly supply citations and published articles wherein said psychologists have made such claims.

    In response to your previous remarks about the existance of "spirituality" centers in the brain. This is not true at all. This is not even the way the human cortex is functionally arranged. Cortical modules are integrative, and subserve multiple functions. Are you aware that the same neural regions that subserve the emergence of epileptic seizures are ALSO activated by religious delusions and ideation? Here is the citation if you are interested, and please, back up your statements with published citations.

    1: Epilepsy Behav. 2006 Aug;9(1):186-8..

    The "sensed presence": An epileptic aura with religious overtones.

    • Landtblom AM .

    Motala General Hospital and Division of Neurology, Linkoping University, SE 581 85 Linkoping, Sweden.

    "Sensed presence," a religious emotion, has been the focus of recent neurotheological research because it has been claimed that weak transcranial magnetic stimulation can evoke such experiences. Some researchers have recently questioned this claim. However, religion and epilepsy have been linked through history, clinical observations, and research. This article describes the "sensed presence" as an aura in one patient who did not interpret his experience in a religious way. He had bilateral hypoperfusion of the temporal lobes when investigated by SPECT, and hypoplasia of the dorsal part of the left hippocampus when examined by magnetic resonance imaging. This case report illustrates that "sensed presence" can occur as an epileptic aura with or without religious interpretation.

  • Geronimo
    Geronimo

    Hey Kid A! I thought maybe, you know, that I'd offer a few words about what's going on here, you know? If that's cool with you. Okay, here goes:
    I find the polarization on this board quite intriguing and sometimes even fascinating. To have leapt from theism to atheism in such a rapid manner as many of you have done elicits a variety of symptoms, symptoms that are on display here to varying degrees. I personally find absolutist claims of any sort more than slightly eccentric. Most of the members of this cyber-community were once absolutists in their theism and in their choice of religious affiliation. After the disconfirmation of their religious beliefs, religion was utterly rejected and an absolutist atheistic materialism took it's place. Can you not detect a behavioral pattern? There is obviously a predisposition, even perhaps an imperative, toward absolutism among most former Jehovah's Witnesses and all cultists and former cultists. A desperate need for absolute ontological, epistemological, and even teleological "answers" whether religious or atheistic. My advice is to keep that healthy, questioning skepticism, but to lose the strident triumphalism so endemic to the hardened debunker. This marvelous cosmos still holds far more mysteries than certainties. As a former JW I too was tempted to jettison all religion and spirituality and embrace a purely materialistic world view. Relativity theory soon disabused me of my quaint Newtonian/Aristotlean presuppositions and I have since embraced a genuinely skeptical--though open minded--world view.

    No, I'm not advocating embracing a religious world view, let alone a specific religion. I am advocating an openness, a skeptical openness. Skepticism is healthy and a very positive trait this world desperately needs more of. What it doesn't need is a closed-minded fundamentalism-whether theist or atheist--that is strident and triumphal--and worst of all warlike. The world is on the brink of another war because of absolutists and their strident triumphalism.

    To be an absolutist of any sort is to be utterly committed to an ism. As "Ferris Buehler" said, "One should not believe in an ism, one should believe in oneself." I for one choose to remain skeptical but open. I reject the closed minded debunker mentality of the Amazing Randi, Joe Nickell, and their ilk. Parading themselves as "skeptics" when they're really only debunkers. It's very needful to debunk, but to have a debunker mentality and not simply a debunking methodology is to go too far. It's to close yourself to any further development in the area you've already made up your mind about. So, hey, you know? It's like, check this out: Be cool and take it slow. G

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Hi Geronimo,
    What you are seeing is two opposing philosophies that are rooted in the world-views of people. Evolution is not any more 'scientific' than creationism: the actual physical evidence and observations done by scientists can be taken to either side. Ken Ham has done much to show how this works in some of his writings.
    Evolution is a 'sacred cow' in academia and they enforce it through "peer pressure review" that does nothing but label others unfairly. We've all seen their treatment of Dember and Behe. Scientists who dispute the theory are smeared and marginalized by the academics who presently have tenure. You see, they have 'drawn a line' and inquiry into any science is ok until you challenge the actual beliefs in their world-view.
    They will gradually be gone and evolution will fade from the scene as a viable teaching. Naturalism is also going to be a casualty and deservedly so. BTW, global warming is another one of their 'sacred cows' despite the fact that 17,000 American scientists have signed a statement of dispute of this teaching. This teaching is solely aimed at disprution of the American economy, which would weaken the military and that would lead to the eventual defeat or retreat of America.
    These are tenets of the socialist/communist bent of so many who are leftover from the '60s. Do you see how unfairly they treat those who disagree with them politically? Leftists must do this because of the weaknesses of their own world-view. They've seen the massive failure of the socialist states along with their lack of moral or ethical treatment of their fellow human beings.
    Christianity and the republics are their worst enemies and this is why they are so shrill and reactionary toward people of faith, especially the American version since we have not knuckled under to their propaganda. Islam and all other faiths are secondary opponents. They realize that these cannot be a threat to them if they control the strongest military. The first and greatest enemy is America and its military because they know that those who have backbone will challenge those who seek to enslave others.
    Rex

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Shiney

    What you are seeing is two opposing philosophies that are rooted in the world-views of people. Evolution is not any more 'scientific' than creationism:

    Lie One.

    the actual physical evidence and observations done by scientists can be taken to either side. Ken Ham has done much to show how this works in some of his writings.

    Just like you can easily find some idiot who will use the 'same evidence' to argue for a flat Earth or geocentric model.

    Evolution is a 'sacred cow' in academia and they enforce it through "peer pressure review" that does nothing but label others unfairly.

    Yeah, just like in countries where you have to be accredited and tested by a certifying body before fitting gas appliances, gass fitting is a sacred cow and enforced through certification, and thosewithout such testing and accreditation are unfairly label as not competent to fit gas appliances. Life's a bitch. Why are you so against Creationist and ID-ot papers suffering the same invigilation process as all other scientific papers to reduce the chance of publishing erroneous rubbish?

    We've all seen their treatment of Dember and Behe.

    Yup; the trash science of Dember and Behe being demolished by decent science. Remember Behe has admitted in court that his definisiton of a theory, which he uses to insist that ID should be taught in schools, would also allow astrology to be traught in schools? What a scientist!! One has to say his 'irreducable complexity' arguments, for example regarding the eye and flagelli, inspired some wonderful science to thoroughly debunk it. Pity that those same arguments, although thoroughly disproved, are still being used by the Creationist and ID-ot communities today.

    Scientists who dispute the theory are smeared and marginalized by the academics who presently have tenure.

    Because they don't deserve the term 'scientist'. AT best they are Natural Philosophers with a presupposition.

    You see, they have 'drawn a line' and inquiry into any science is ok until you challenge the actual beliefs in their world-view.

    Oh, you can challange any belief in the scientific community if you have the evidence and a theory. As ID and Creationism has no evidence or theory, they are not regarded as science. They are philosophical masturbation for those who insist a narrow literalistic interpretation of a book written by bronze-age goat herds is the best way of establishing facts. This is done whilst ignoring there are those who also insist a narrow literalistic interpretation of DIFFERENT books written by bronze-age goat herds is the best way of establishing facts. And there is no method of distinguishing the quality of evdience offered by each book AS THERE IS NO EVIDENCE for the creative myths in those books, any more than there is evidence of everything coming about as a result of a god masturbating (as some myths hold is true).

    They will gradually be gone and evolution will fade from the scene as a viable teaching. Naturalism is also going to be a casualty and deservedly so.

    Yup, and flat-earthism and geocentricism will make a comeback too, along with sacrifices to Thor if there's thundery weather. Next; witch burning for the 21st Century with new 'scientific' methods of determining guilt. Oh brave new world that has such people in it!!

    BTW, global warming is another one of their 'sacred cows' despite the fact that 17,000 American scientists have signed a statement of dispute of this teaching. This teaching is solely aimed at disprution of the American economy, which would weaken the military and that would lead to the eventual defeat or retreat of America.

    Look, Shiney, if the USA has declared war on the rest of the world ('defeat' and 'retreat' sure make it sound like you think so), could they let the rest of the world know?

    These are tenets of the socialist/communist bent of so many who are leftover from the '60s. Do you see how unfairly they treat those who disagree with them politically? Leftists must do this because of the weaknesses of their own world-view. They've seen the massive failure of the socialist states along with their lack of moral or ethical treatment of their fellow human beings.

    Funny how you think Evolution is a communistic or socialistic thing. Darwin would be surprised, as would the majority of scientists today who are not communists or socialists. And I thought it was the American right-wing who claimed anyone who disagreed with them was unpatriotic (much as the Nazi party did in Germany pre-WWII)? I suppose that's fair treatment? The secular world in general has actually ensured human rights are established as the lead in the making of laws, instead of the religiously predicated law codes of the past, putting individual freedom for peaceful law-abiding members of society in place of religious repression.

    Christianity and the republics are their worst enemies and this is why they are so shrill and reactionary toward people of faith, especially the American version since we have not knuckled under to their propaganda.

    Yeah, whatever... you calling anyone 'shrill and reactionary' is a bit of a laugh, and your comment on propoganda when you are in favour of a government that propogandised going to war on a pretext is hilarious. But please carry on straining gnats and swallowing camels...

    Islam and all other faiths are secondary opponents.

    People looking for conflict as enthusiastically as you will find it no matter what. You sound like a hate-filled Iman, largely because your philosophy is based upon the same assumptions as their's are.

    It is thinking like that that is the greatest danger to the world today.

    Now, please go and evolve.

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    DD

    Yes as I stated I have read the article I am fully aware of the analogy being made. I am also pretty certain I noticed the use of the word information , The article is attempting to say that entropy and the laws of thermodynamics can be applied to information and that thus evolution can't take place. Well if you are going to make an analogy you need to understand the basic principles of what you are using as an example. If you don't understand that entropy can decrease as well as increase within a system just by applying energy then your analogy is going to be very weak.

    It is also important to understand that information isn't energy, you can destroy information. Thus your analogy isn't working on the most fundamental law of physics that thermodynamics is based on i.e the conservation of energy.

    Nice try but no cigar.

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Hi Abaddon, I hope you didn't spend an hour or more writing up that load of cut and paste drivel. I just took about thirty seconds to see it was your usual diatribe of liberal elitist POLITICAL OPINION (not facts) and dismissed the whole post. Have a nice day! Rex

  • Geronimo
    Geronimo

    Shining One, when another shows you enough respect to make a detailed answer to your question or comment, it does not become you to answer in such a nasty godless unChristlike fashion. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Am I mistaken or is that not the Golden Rule of Jesus? Of course, since you are now a triumphalist evangelical, you need not pay attention any longer to your thoughts, speech, or behavior. Now you can simply be the meanest nastiest SOB around and--HALLELUJAH--you're still clothed with the righteousness of Christ.

    Paul is the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity. His writings are a maggot...I mean magnet..for every hateful nasty SOB desiring to harm others but do so wrapped in Streaming Clouds Of Glory. This description Fitzhugh to a "T" shining one, for your posts reveal that you lack any respect for your fellow human, a complete lack of Grace at work in your life, a total lack of any Transformation taking place within you, unless one counts being transformed into a nasty gnome. A troll.

    People do not dislike and abhor you "shining one" because you are Christlike. What is it that you think you "shine forth" ? Perhaps you are utterly self-delusional after all, as was Paul. Reading his words, Paul was obviously a small ugly man with an ego the size of Manhatten. With a short temper and delusions of grandeur. As a Pharisee, he brought his Pharisaic mind to bear on Christianity and turned it into a legal court-drama in the sky. One's righteousness is merely an imputational righteousness in his wiritngs, whereas in John the emphasis is on a transformative ongoing relationship with the indwelling divine Logos. Legal/mechanical thought versus Mystical/Living thought.

    Too bad you choose the robot lawyer way, shining one. G

  • skeptic2
    skeptic2

    I love these evolution arguments. Evolution is unstoppable. Argue all you want, but after we die, it will still be here. As long as there is DNA, heritability, mutation and reproduction it will still be here, independent of humans or their attitude towards it. Anti-evolutionists can only bury, or be taught to bury, their heads in the sand.

    Kid-A - some of your posts are waaaay cool. Lot's of other good posts on here too. Remember the quote 'arguing with creationists is like whack-a-mole. you deal with one argument <whack>, you think it's gone, then it pops up again - the same argument you already dealt with' - process becomes dull after a while, but all the time the evidence continues to pile up.

    Evolution is not anti-god. Evolution is God's creative process in motion. To argue against evolution is to blaspheme God's creation.

    What is the creationist explanation for new species over time (millions of species over billions of years)? Does God parachute another fully-formed species onto the planet every few years? The creationist's God is a simpleton, they blaspheme God for their own political ends.

  • Geronimo
    Geronimo

    Skeptic2, I concur but would add that "God" IS evolution; the One Conscious Energy of the Cosmos constantly evolving in a dance of Self-discovery, metaphorically speaking. It's important, it this context particularly, to see and understand the crucial difference between consciousness and awareness. One can be conscious, but unaware. When we sleep, we remain conscious entities, yet unaware. The Universal Mind is conscious, but not aware. Awareness comes to the Universal Mind when it manifests through beings having self-awareness.

    It is deep dreamless sleep that we all partake of each night that is so very restful and refreshing! The reason is that we have returned to Primordial Consciousness, the Infinite Consciousness that is unaware of anything except bliss. One can experience these Metaphysical Realities for oneself by taking up the practice of meditation. G

  • skeptic2
    skeptic2

    Evolution might bug you, nothing wrong with that, keep researching and it will bug you less. No evolution should bug you more.

    For example, when did God invent the fully formed bird? Did he invent all existing species at once?

    What explains extinct bird-like species and their place further back in the fossil record?

    Archaeopteryx, 140 million years ago

    Sinornithosaurus, 130 million years ago, rudimentary feathers/hairs on body

    close up of head

    Caudipteryx, 120 million years ago

    artists impression

    Gansus yumenensis, 110 million years ago

    artists impression

    Hesperornis, flight-less bird with teeth, 90 million years ago

    Presbyornis, 50 million years ago

    Diatryma, 50 million years ago

    This is just a handful of bird and bird-like species. Did God drop them onto the planet fully formed? Does he still drop species onto the planet fully formed? What year was the last one?

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