whats it all about? (page 2)

fullofdoubtnow

Hi andyg, and welcome to the forum.

You certainly have lots of questions! I see other posters have tried to answer most of them, and to be honest, I have nothing to add. I no longer believe in the jw doctrines anyway.

well wow, im really impressed at how open-minded you all are. a lot of these questions developed over time, but when i used to ask about things like the vegetarian question at our kingdom hall i just found people to be deliberately vague. no one would admit that they didn't know, or accept flaws in their beliefs. so this is encouraging, really. the last person that posted - how long were you involved and what made you lose your faith? my mum had all these crazy ideas about the devil posessing her, this was her excuse to behave like a whore and still claim belief. she's so frustrating because she still says she believes in it all, and that she had no reason at all to turn her back. what were your reasons? did you feel, like me, that there were more questions than answers, and the JW faith was often too vague? my main problems with christianity in general is the concept of original sin, that we should all repent something two people 6000 years ago probably didnt do - and the ransom sacrifice, that we should all be grateful for something 2000 years ago that probably didn't happen. obviously, it's all a question of faith, but no matter what their beliefs, nobody should be guilt-tripped into worship.

my main problem with the JW faith is that i don't agree with the view (as OnTheWayOut said) that 6 billion people to inherit the earth from all who have ever lived is a liberal proportion. again, the issue of what makes a good and bad person is open to debate, but to exclude those from other religions is silly. when you consider that many past generations faced intense state pressure here (and a lot of people still do), it's not a level playing field at all. if God really exists, and this is His logic, then you really have to take a step back and think. but please don't think i'm being offensive, i'm just trying to understand why so many people are so devoted. you all seem like great people, and thanks for being so helpful and open-minded. oh and also, what is meant by WTS?

OnTheWayOut

but to exclude those from other religions is silly.

JW doctrine doesn't specifically exclude people who are not JW, but it is a word-game. At Armageddon, yes, they say you have been preached to and must have accepted the truth that God made sure you were able to understand. But prior to Armageddon (even near the last minute), the teaching is that anyone can be resurrected unless he has been judged already to be a blasphemer against God's Holy Spirit (IOW: he has already rejected Jehovah, Christ, Holy Spirit). They also teach that Noah's Flood victims have already been judged, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah have already been judged- no resurrection. I now feel that this doctrine is to get JWs to believe that their non-JW relatives have a chance at resurrection, so keep the faith.

I was a WT parrot on this one: In the 1980s they said- In all of history, perhaps 15 Billion people have lived and died already. I forget the exact details, but it added up to between one(1) and one-half(1/2) acre of land per person in Paradise. The land would be blessed by Jehovah and very productive, so there would really be no problem with food. [What I leave out is animal life- very difficult to fit into the equation if they aren't killing each other, and continue multiplying] [Also, so many people have lived in the 20th century and died, that the numbers can't hold up.]

Alligator Wisdom

what is meant by WTS?

Watch Tower Society

Alligator Wisdom (aka Brother NOT Exerting Vigorously by WTS standards)

OnTheWayOut

- how can the story of job be seen as anything other than morbid?

I may be thinking differently from you, but I studied in the "Live Forever" book, and I had problems with the story of Job. Not so much Job, himself, but his children. God wouldn't let Satan kill Job, but his 10 children were fair game? God blessed Job with new children after he proved faithful. What parent feels that new children makes up for the loss? Well, the first children are eligible for resurrection. (Yeah, but God still approved of Satan's testing method which included killing children.)

With great hindsight, I wish I didn't drop the matter.

are you thinking that maybe an attempt ... to ban religion will result in world war 3?

The teachings are fuzzy on this, but your thinking is along the lines of doctrine. Religion is attacked, destroyed. It probably would be a ban. JWs are taught that it APPEARS that Satan will be successful wiping Witnesses out too, but then Jehovah will intervene and save the faithful.

144,000 will go to heaven. does the HQ keep a list of those claiming?

I missed this one in studying. It is a valid question. The organization only notes how many partakers at the memorial there are each year. That would be the remnant of the 144,000. Also, on a publisher's card (it says how many hours of preaching you do), it notes if you are of the anointed. They totally do not keep track of these people. They tell us that this group, as the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class, have a vast responsibility from God and Christ. The Governing Body represents this group. In my elder's resignation letter, I asked how the Governing Body contacts the group and gets their input before determining doctrine. (I already know the answer from Ray Franz and other former members, but there is no Watchtower explanation in print.)

jgnat

I should mention there are not that many practicing JW's on this site. The last few years the Watchtower Society (WTS) has warned good members away from the internet.

but please don't think i'm being offensive, i'm just trying to understand why so many people are so devoted. you all seem like great people, and thanks for being so helpful and open-minded. oh and also, what is meant by WTS?

The way people hang on to illogical beliefs so firmly, I believe, has to do with flaws in the ways our minds process information. You might like to read up a bit on Cognitive Dissonance , Coercive Mind Control, to understand. When used badly, faith can be a mind trap for some people. They fear that any doubt is evidence of "lack of faith". So they shut down the doubts without examining them. This leaves no room for reasonable questioning or debate, and the person is stuck in an illogical, sometimes damaging worldview.

Country Girl

Accordint to the Bible we were *all* created in the image of God, and that was perfect. Perfection leaves no choice.

CG

Legolas

Welcome to the board!

andyg

I should mention there are not that many practicing JW's on this site. The last few years the Watchtower Society (WTS) has warned good members away from the internet... This leaves no room for reasonable questioning or debate, and the person is stuck in an illogical, sometimes damaging worldview.

is this the point you were making? or if not do you agree with it? i mean, i take it you're a devout believer yourself and you've obviously been very active here, helping people out. also, do you believe a person can be considered a faithful JW without necessarily believing all the stories? when i first posted here i expected a lot of ignorant zealots who would refuse to discuss anything, but people here are very open-minded and pleasant (thanks by the way for all your welcomes!) do you believe it's possible for a 'practicing' JW to discount altogether stories like noah's ark? or the story of isaac and abraham? because, and with respect, stories like this are beyond mad. you're obviously a very well-read person though (cognitive dissonance is something we touched briefly upon last year, and i will certainly be following this up), so what are your views here?

jgnat

is this the point you were making?

You'll have to explain yourself better. I made several points in that sentence. Which point were you referring to?

i mean, i take it you're a devout believer yourself

No, I'm not a JW. And I said so in my first post on your thread.

but people here are very open-minded and pleasant (thanks by the way for all your welcomes!)

But people here are not representative of the JW population. Nor are they necessarily "believers".

also, do you believe a person can be considered a faithful JW without necessarily believing all the stories? ....do you believe it's possible for a 'practicing' JW to discount altogether stories like noah's ark? or the story of isaac and abraham? because, and with respect, stories like this are beyond mad.

Well, there's a whole whack of double-minded JW's who manage to compartmentalize their JW life apart from their regular one. So I would say it is possible, as long as the person compartmentalizes well. I won't. As popeye would say, I y'am who I y'am.

whats it all about?

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