Asheron,
You might find the following links interesting. Check out the Q. and answer by the author: What do you say to those today who say that religion itself is evil?
http://www.washtimes.com/culture/20050419-105235-9557r.htm
Also,
Italian Nun Murdered; Possible Link to Pope's Remarks
by Kenneson 17 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
Asheron
Kenneson,
Interesting articles but I think that pointing to atheistic rulers and blaming thier atrocities on thier lack of a theistic belief system is off base. Also, please note that I in no am proposing that atheists are incapable of tyranny.
But, I have yet to see an Atheist bible somewhere that gives someone scriptural (I.E. Gods Holy Authorization) justification to fly a plane into a building or kill an abortion doctor or enslave people.
With that all being said.....
If given a choice between a crazy atheist with a gun and a fundy Muslim with Jihad on his mind I will opt for choice number 3.
Crazy is as Crazy does.
Asheron
-
Kristofer
that's a misnomer...Since atheism is based on lack of evidence, you won't find any support for any ideology, including doing good for anyone just as you won't find it supporting murder in the name of anything, you won't find it supporting good in the name of anything either. Secondly, being what the nature of Atheism is...the fact of the matter as the previous posters have shown with their links, more people were killed under atheistic leadership than any religious leadership. It shows that lack of God or lack of faith isn't any more peaceful or better.
-
greendawn
It may well be connected since Moslems don't normally go around killing catholic nuns and priests.
-
XJW4EVR
DUne and Asheron, please keep in mind that your atheism will not grant you special dispensation with the Islamo-fascists. In fact, you might be number one with a bullet (no pun intended) on their hit list.
-
Asheron
XJW4EVR,
First off, I never said I was an Atheist. Secondly, I dont need, nor do I care about dispensation from anyone - be they fundy Islamists or fundy Christians or posters that make invalid assumptions and speak of "bullets". I found your response offensive, but hey whatever.
Kristopher,
If you read my posts carefully and without assumption you will see that I was not agreeing with Dune's post that Atheistic rule is more peaceful. I was making the point that "Godly" rulers have blood on thier hands as well. Lets not make any pretense that the number of murders somehow raises the Christian rulers to a higher moral level than Atheists.
I would also disagree that all Atheistic belief is a result of a lack of proof of the existance of god. In fact, many Atheists will site many "facts" to support thier belief that there is no God. One example would be disease and death. I.E How could thier be a universal creator that allows pain and suffering.
Implicit atheism is defined by George Smith as 'the absence of theistic belief without a conscious rejection of it'
Strong or positive atheism, by contrast, is the belief that no deities exist. A strong atheist consciously rejects theism and may even argue that certain deities logically cannot exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Scientific_reasons
Asheron
-
Kristofer
Hey Asheron, Do you mind telling me what the facts are that disprove the existence of God? I find the arguement about evil in the world not very strong. First, that question asks what type of God exists, not the actual existence of God. To assume that he would do something assumes that you know more than He/She does. Also, I find this kind of arguementation a far cry from "facts." Facts usually assume science, and science only tests the measureable and the physical. So would you consider yourself an implicit atheist? I enjoy the discussion :-)
-
Asheron
Kristopher,
You will need to ask an Atheist what facts support his/her beliefs. I am not one. By definition an atheist does NOT belive in God. Since my personal reality is bound by what "is" not what I belive in, the question of the existance of a "God" or diety remains in my box of unanswered questions. I do admit to taking the question out semi regular and considering it.
If you would like to label me the closest term would be "Agnotic Skeptic".
Here is a definition of a "Skeptic" written by someone alot more eloquint than I.
"Some people believe that skepticism is the rejection of new ideas, or worse, they confuse ?skeptic? with ?cynic? and think that skeptics are a bunch of grumpy curmudgeons unwilling to accept any claim that challenges the status quo. This is wrong. Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas ? no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position. Ideally, skeptics do not go into an investigation closed to the possibility that a phenomenon might be real or that a claim might be true. When we say we are ?skeptical,? we mean that we must see compelling evidence before we believe".
"But what does it mean to be skeptical? Skepticism has a long historical tradition dating back to ancient Greece when Socrates observed: ?All I know is that I know nothing.? But this is not a practical position to take. Modern skepticism is embodied in the scientific method, that involves gathering data to formulate and test naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena. A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement. But all facts in science are provisional and subject to challenge, and therefore skepticism is a method leading to provisional conclusions. Some claims, such as water dowsing, ESP, and creationism, have been tested (and failed the tests) often enough that we can provisionally conclude that they are false. Other claims, such as hypnosis and chaos theory, have been tested but results are inconclusive so we must continue formulating and testing hypotheses and theories until we can reach a provisional conclusion. The key to skepticism is to continuously and vigorously apply the methods of science to navigate the treacherous straits between ?know nothing? skepticism and ?anything goes? credulity"
The rest can be found here: http://www.skeptic.com/about_us/manifesto.html
In other words I find it ok to say "I dont know" to some questions. One of those questions is a big one-"where did the universe come from?"
Lots of people, especially fundy believers of any faith, KNOW there is a God. I say good for them unless they come to my door or try to change my right to say, "I dont know". Also, please do not assume my position to mean I have not given these questions deep and considered thought. I have and will continue to examine the evidences or the lact there of.
I would also like to point out a fact I recently discovered. Adolf Hitler was a member of the church of Rome and then turned apostate. In fact Pius XII ordered Germans not to oppose Hitler in his policys. He spoke out against Atheists on many occasions and the Nazis worebelt buckles on which was the legend Gott Mit Uns ("God with us"),
In Hitlers own words::
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
So big question comming:::::In our discussion of whether more died under Atheist or Christian leaders, where do we put the 62,000,000 that died in WW2 ?
Asheron