to Utopian Reformist re: the Black Panther Party

by reagan_oconnor 17 Replies latest jw friends

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  reagan_oconnor

  I have told myself time and time again that I would not stoop to the level that I have in this discussion. I knew that the statment that the BPP could be considered a terrorist group (just as was the KKK, equally racist, but on the other end of the spectrum) would get the overly-sensitive in a turmoil. I should have known better. [8>]

  This is obviously a pointless discussion as you have CHOSEN to take my comments personally, as if they were an 'affront' to you. It never ceases to amaze me how the point of the matter can become twisted and perverted by those who wish to pick apart the opinions of others.

  I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul.
  
• 

  LDH

  UR, I wouldn't be too hard on Reagan. The perspective she has is the one our country wants their citizens to have.

  For a fact, NO ONE in this great nation should be advocating violent revolution. We have other ways of solving problems and addressing real issues that affect people's lives.

  But that has not always been the case. Congress has promised us all 'No taxation without representation,' yet, blacks for years had no representation.

  And quite frankly, they were just the torchbearers. Look at our country's dismal record on how we've treated:

  Japanese
  Chinese
  Native Americans
  African Americans

  And the list just goes on and on.
  Now you may argue that Irish Americans or German Americans have been mistreated also, and you would be right. But you have to look at WHO mistreated them.

  Was it the Federal government which represents and is supposed to protect all of it's citizens?

  No, it was individuals, even of their own ethnicity like Andrew Carnegie who worked those men like dogs and didn't care whether they lived or died.

  So the revolution wasn't really so much out of 'hate' but rather out of being tired of the Federal government leading the way in human rights abuses.

  Lisa
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  Utopian Reformist

  Lisa:

  You summarized things in a very painless way and easy to understand. I do agree with your statements.

  However, I am not being hard on Ms. O'Connor in a PERSONAL way, I do repsect her and her efforts in her postings. She is obviously a very deicated and concerned individual. I only question, or rather try to REMIND her that the typical sources of information in this country are biased.

  Also, if her conscience or intuition warned her BEFORE mentioning the BPP, maybe the premonition was correct. Did she have the research up front, or was it a treatise ex-post-facto?

  You have to admit, the police assasinations allegations were ludicrous in the 60's and 70's as they are now when repeated. I know it isn't her fault. I am NOT blaming her, as I have a fondness for certain "aspects" of her cultures (notice I recognize she is multi-cutural whether she is aware or not), both her american pop culture, american WASP sub-culture, and her northern european anglo-saxon ancestral cultures from Germany and Ireland.

  I just know I would not read British books about Irish history, and believe I would then understand why there are problems in Belfast and Dublin. What do the Irish themselves say? She is retreating without reason.

  I hope I did not become too agressive or possibly offensive.
• 

  LDH

  name an episode of violence against the white majority that was organized and executed by members of the BPP?

  HMMM, I can't believe I missed that one. Yes, I too would be interested to hear of any situations like this if any are aware.

  Reagan mentioned 'violence equates to terrorism.' Yet I'm not sure that is always the case.

  Too bad we can't have a dialogue about race without people getting upset. Just another reason our country is far from healed.

  Lisa
• 

  teejay

  Hello, Reagan.

  You make some interesting observations about the Black Panther Party.

  I was particularly interested in you referring to them as "internal terrorists" along with the multiple branches of both the still-existing KKK and Aryan Nation organizations, both of which are positively known to have acted criminally (including murder) in order to support an entirely different agenda from that of the BPP. I also hope that you can point to some level of documentation that supports your stated "FACT" that "the BPP assassinated white police officers."

  I'm curious. You said, "I'm learning that being an American is a lot harder than I thought." What does that mean? I hate it when people make assumptions about me, so I keep from doing the same of others. Have you not lived here in America very long? If not, that may explain a lot of your views relative to late 20th century, urban-American history.

  For example, above you quote from gibbsmagazine.com. In that quote, you highlight (bold) the wrong words, in my opinion. It seems that you overlook the genuine thrust of the quote, that Black, Yellow, White (in post-Apartheid S. Africa, e.g.), indeed, people everywhere, have an inalienable right to defend themselves against racist (read "unlawful") authorities. What was terroristic about that?

  I hope you don't take either Utopian or me to be argumentative. It's simply that I found your reference to the activities of the BPP as "internal terrorism" was a bit different that what I've been able to learn about them and hardly akin to the latest tragedy or the activities of the KKK and neo-Nazis.

  Btw, differences of opinion are no indication that you or anyone else is "stooping" to a certain level. Opposing sides of even spirited debates can both hold their respective heads high. Personally, I thought the discussion you started was going along quite well.

  I hope you return to it.

  peace,
  tj
• 

  teejay

  Utopian,

  Thank you for your concise rebuttal to Reagan's earlier depiction of the Black Panther Party as "internal terrorists" on the order of he KKK and Aryan Nation subversives. It does save me the trouble.

  Since David Hilliard's This Side of Glory has been part of my personal library since its release, I must tell you that I became quiet alarmed reading this thread, beginning with Reagan's opening post! I thought I might have been the victim of some perverse ruse, played on me by the same subversive group that I held in esteem!! Shades of the WTS all over again! I even saw the movie Panther and believed it to be an accurate portrayal of events, for cryin' out loud!

  Alarmed, that is, until I found your responses, reassuring me that my original view, based on his book and other source materials was, if not wholly correct, at least defensible.

  peace,
  tj
• 

  Seeker

  Part of the problem here is semantic. "Terrorist" is a loaded term, like slinging "cult" at a member of a fringe religion. As with "cult", "terrorist" is all a matter of perspective. Were the Americans who fought against the British in the 1770s:

  a) Revolutionaries
  b) Traitors
  c) Terrorists

  Depends on who you asked at the time.

  Are the people who destroyed the WTC last week:

  a) Terrorists
  b) Heroes

  Depends on who you ask now.

  Were the Black Panthers

  a) Helpful for the black community
  b) Radicals who inspired terror in white America

  Both, actually. But option b above is hardly a hard thing to accomplish -- white America is jumpy about everything it doesn't understand, and the Black Panters is one movement white America never "got."

  One further complication is that most radical movements have a tendency to arc toward violence eventually. Radicalism has a hard fight against the conservative base, and often meets with failures. These failures typically cause the more hotheaded elements within the radical groups to begin to advocate more violent methods, to "force" things to get done. I have no doubt Black Panther members did engage in violent acts over time. I have no doubt that these acts were widely trumped up in the press far beyond the reality. It is remarkable how often the mainstream press gets things wrong. Mischaracterization of the Black Panthers was merely par for the course, no matter if some violent acts actually did take place.
• 

  LDH

  Seeker,

  Thanks for your words!

  I had almost forgotten, there are those who would call the slaves who plotted to overthrow wicked plantation owners terrorists.

  It is mostly all in how you look at it, and from whom's point of view.

  I was sorry Reagan left the dialogue, I don't believe she offended or meant to offend. Quite to contrary, she took the time to look up some references.

  Lisa