by AuldSoul 33 Replies latest jw friends
(4) If "in the beginning" Jesus was "a god" then why does Isaiah say that YHWH is the ONLY God? Was Jesus a false god, in the beginning, or was he YHWH?
This is a great way to tackle John 1:1. If you discuss whether the phrase should be 'god' or 'a god' a JW will come back with their rote answers. But either way, Jesus being 'god' or 'a god' contradicts the monotheistic Christian viewpoint when viewed from JW Arianism.
Likewise I am impressed with question 4. It is a good way to ask it without getting the same answer JWs are supposed to give. She probably thought she could answer it, but then read the question again, and couldn't.
I wish I was as brilliant as you Auldsoul. As a JW, I couldn't be able to answer any of the questions. As a non-JW I still can't answer them with JW logic. All the same, I will give it a try from JW logic.
1) In Hebrews 1 we see that even the angels do obeisance to Jesus. This is the same act of worship Satan asked Jesus to do to him in Matthew 4. If even angels worship Jesus, why shouldn't we worship Jesus? The Angels was simply recognizing Jesus as being exhaulted by Jehovah. They was not worshipping him, nor was they praying to him.
(2) Where in the Bible do we find that congregation elders have authority to hold secret trials to judge guilt, innocence, and/or repentance? We see in the book of Acts that the Apostles held a meeting in Jerusalem. So perhaps during that meeting they threw a few people out that is not recorded in the Bible. Also Peter condemned Anninias and his wife to death when it was discovered they didn't give all the proceeds from the land they sold like they said they would. This is a precurser to how the Congregation does it today.
(3) Where in the Bible do we find that anyone is qualified to preach BEFORE baptism? When Jesus was a young lad, he stayed behind at the temple and spoke to the religious leaders, this was years before his baptism. So the same is true today, we preach before baptism just like Jesus did.
(4) If "in the beginning" Jesus was "a god" then why does Isaiah say that YHWH is the ONLY God? Was Jesus a false god, in the beginning, or was he YHWH? At the time Isaiah wrote his book, he was unaware of Jesus. John was written after Jesus died and was exhaulted. John knew of Jesus' exhaulted status and since Jehovah knows the end from the beginning, pre-exhaulted him before coming to Earth.
How did I do using JW logic?
Also Peter condemned Anninias and his wife to death when it was discovered they didn't give all the proceeds from the land they sold like they said they would.
How do we know what Peter did? It was done publicly.
You pretty well summed up the best defenses a JW could muster, but they would only fool themselves. They aren't defenses of the JW doctrine, at all.
By the way, for an instance of worship AND PRAYER to the human Jesus, prior to glorification, examine the account of the mother of James and John asking for special positions for her sons. She was not criticized for doing obeisance to Jesus, or for praying to him for something.
Matthew 20:20-23
Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee approached him with her sons, doing obeisance and asking for something from him. He said to her: "What do you want?" She said to him: "Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom." Jesus said in answer: "YOU men do not know what YOU are asking for. Can YOU drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They said to him: "We can." He said to them: "YOU will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."
He received worship and answered a prayer in that account. The answer was basically, "I can't give you what isn't mine to give." But the prayer was answered.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
AuldSoul, why do you keep picking on old ladies?
Because they are the only ones doing street work these days. Besides this biddie picked on him...
moshe: ***I found out too that elderly JW's do not move out of their comfort zone easily in a discussion about JW teachings.***
I've found that to be the case, too, moshe. That's why I avoid religious discussion with my elderly JW parents. But even if the elderly JWs AuldSoul talked to can't engage in a rational discussion, they will undoubtedly talk to other, younger JWs about the encounter, so indirectly AuldSoul's efforts may do some good.
AudlSoul:
Are you SURE she was a JW? Asking for money for coffee is unheard of. And, I am suspicious about her NOT wanting to open the Bible. For the last year or so, that has been the big "push"...get the Bible open...even if it is just one scripture...yada yada yada.
I think you might have been "had." Perhaps it is a new form of begging.
Justitia
Justitia, the same thing crossed my mind. Here in Sac, the JWs do a lot of "street witnessing" on the downtown mall, where the homeless, junkies and street kids congregate. They leave their old mags with the folks down there, and I've seen the homeless then try to sell the literature in order to raise change.
Now, Auld Soul was actually talking to her, so he'd be in a better position to judge this case. But I don't assume that the person hawking the literature is a real JW--at least in downtown Sacramento--unless they meet all the rest of the qualifications (dress, glazed eyes, general lack of urgency b/c a junkie trying to raise cash is VERY urgent about selling those mags!).
Jankyn
I was called over to a table of four very official looking proud JW men outside the grocery store at the literature table. I'm sure at least two were the local elders.
After a very intelligent discussion on who was calling the shots at the WT, and who they actually followed-God or man, I pulled out my Bible to go over a few Scriptures.
The eldest of the men started shaking and demanded that I not take that Bible out of my purse. I continued to do so and he said he was calling the police and knew the manager of the store. I said; "I thought you were here to tell people the good news of the Bible, yet you have no Bible here on the table. Do you really think that you have the right to be here trying to tell people the good news, and no one else is allowed to stand here and do the same?"
One of the others held him back and talked him down from trying to have me arrested. I assure you I was calm, polite, and respectful.
I know I've had an effect on several who used to count hours at that table. They never came back. One younger man used some JW jargon on me. He said it's like this; "Jesus is like a phone, you talk through the phone but not to the phone." I said "according to the Bible, you will bow before that phone and be judged by that phone, young man, learn to think for yourself before you feel like a fool for calling Jesus Christ a telephone"
He has never been back either.
Auldsoul, you have good questions for thinking JW's....
I wonder too as another poster here...was she a real JW? AND you gave her your address and phone number? That's a NO NO
Also I have a question: How old does a person have to be for EDLERLY status? Just wondering cuz I am not a young chicken anymore.
Auldsould, you seem to have well thought out your questions, and your scripture in Matthew is brilliant.
Matthew 20:20-23 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee approached him with her sons, doing obeisance and asking for something from him. He said to her: "What do you want?" She said to him: "Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom." Jesus said in answer: "YOU men do not know what YOU are asking for. Can YOU drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They said to him: "We can." He said to them: "YOU will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."
JWs seem to skip over this one rather quickly. I never thought of the "doing obesance" as a form of worship, but obesance is just that. Again, using JW logic, if they can point to saluting the flag as idol worship, than James and John's mother was worshipping Jesus by her "doing obesance and asking something from him."
JWs would point to this part... "but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father." ... as Jesus being in subjection to Jehovah. Does this make Jesus a lesser God?
