Taliban, Lot, and Men of Sodom

by GinnyTosken 11 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  GinnyTosken

  Reading an article in the New York Times, I came across a description of the Taliban and Mullah Omar, the man who started the movement:

  Isolating the Taliban has been easy — but ineffective — because they insulate themselves. Television is banned. Few telephones exist. Use of the Internet is forbidden.

  The average talib, educated in a religious school, can quote passages from the Koran, but it is a good bet that he does not know which countries fought in World War II, that man has landed on the moon, that not all Jews live in Israel.

  Mullah Omar, the man who started the movement, is now known as Amir-ul-Momineen, the commander of the faithful. . . .

  He is deeply devout. He sits on the floor, in the Afghan way. He speaks in a near whisper. He is not quite the malleable fellow his Pakistani sponsors hoped for.

  Only those who have met Mullah Omar know what he looks like. He has never been photographed, as far as anyone knows — by the Taliban's interpretation of Islamic law, pictures of living things are forbidden.

  What I found intriguing is that, like Lot, Mullah Omar is bound by the law of sacred hospitality:
  
  

  Time and again, America and other nations have accused Mr. bin Laden of terrorism and demanded his surrender to stand trial. Mullah Omar has refused.

  One can speculate about the reasons. They might include the Afghan consecration of hospitality, the need the Taliban have for the Saudi multimillionaire's support and a sincere belief in his innocence.

  To our Western ears, it sounds flippant for the Taliban to answer, "He is our guest." To them, hospitality is God's law. Here is a quote from Daniel A. Helminiak's What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality:

  In desert country, where Sodom lay, to stay outside exposed to the cold of the night could be fatal. So a cardinal rule of Lot’s society was to offer hospitality to travelers. The same rule is a traditional part of Semitic and Arabic cultures. This rule was so strict that no one might harm even an enemy who had been offered shelter for the night. So doing what was right, following God’s law as he understood it, Lot refused to expose his guests to the abuse of the men of Sodom. To do so would have violated the law of sacred hospitality.

  The Taliban must also consider these sacred words:

  Whosoever shields a Muslim, Allah will shield him in this world and the next. Allah will aid a servant of His so long as the servant aids his brother.
  --Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 36

  Considering their religious background, a decision about bin Laden is not simple. Should Lot have turned over his guests to the sinful men pounding on his door?

  It is extremely frustrating for me to see how religion creates and compounds these problems.

  Ginny, unveiled
• 

  DannyBear

  Ginny,

  It appear's that the Taliban religion is almost prehistoric, or should I say, native indian in its view of the outside world. Unfortuneatly these particular indians, have somehow been able to retain their archaic beliefs while simultaneously learning to fly jet planes.

  The pity is that if they would of stayed in the 'rocky crags' of Afgan, driving camels from village to village, nobody would of been none for the worse.

  They can't have it both ways. Either stand up and meet the modern world, or live like their ancient Bedouin ancestors, whose only concern was getting to the next water hole, not bent on destroying a neighbor's way of life.

  Religion is a snare and a racket...thank you 'jr'.

  Good post Ginny. Another angle to these people we need to know about.

  Danny
• 

  Amazing

  HI Ginny: Very fascinating. Except for the extremist conduct, these people sound like they would fit well into the JW world. Forbidden use of the Internet, strict interpretations of old Hebrew customs, willing to die for radical beliefs, etc. - Thanks again. - Amazing
• 

  GinnyTosken

  DannyBear,

  Which of the hijackers were Afghan or members of the Taliban? Looking over the list of hijackers, I see three who are believed to be from Saudi Arabia and three from the United Arab Emirates.

  Of course, as the radical Islamists see it, the pity is that if Americans had stayed among their amber waves of grain, playing Nintendo instead of violating the holy ground in Saudi Arabia, everyone would have been better off.

  It is easy to blame the Taliban and Afghanistan, but radical Islam is a movement that stretches far beyond the borders of just Afghanistan. If Osama bin Laden is captured, I think the effect will be similar to capturing Milton Henschel. It will give the true believers pause, but many will consider it persecution. The organization will still be mostly intact, and the capture may inspire even greater loyalty and daring from the believers.

  Just as you can't expect an indoctrinated JW or an Amish believer to instantly snap out of it and stand up and meet the modern world, you can't expect the same of the Taliban and their Abrahamic mindset or the radical Islamists. Their military victories will be interepreted as signs of Allah's blessing; their military defeats will be interpreted as testing and a need to persevere.

  I support the quest to find the criminals and bring them to justice. Still, I hope it is a multi-faceted approach--restraining current terrorists and fighting the mindset that breeds them. I think condemnations from the Islamic world itself will be heeded more than anything else. Many of the radical beliefs are in direct conflict with the Quran.

  Ginny
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  CPiolo

  Ginney:

  No television, no telephones, no internet. The Taliban controls information, and in so doing, controls the people subject to their role. In this manner it's easy to demonize outsiders or those with a different view of Islam.

  Amazing:

  You said:

  Except for the extremist conduct, these people sound like they would fit well into the JW world.

  In my view, both groups are guilty of extremist conduct, it's just a matter of degree. Some Islamic groups actively participate to help God acheive his goal through holy war or jihad, while JWs sit eagerly anticipating a much greater slaughter carried out the the big guy in the sky himself. Some Muslims kill themselves and those of other groups in suicide missions carried out to acheive their goal --a world Islamic theocracy. JWs kill themselves and others of their own group --through their bans on vaccinations and blood transfusions-- in an attempt to please God and be resurrected in Paradise. The Muslim campaigns get more attention because of the large numbers of people killed at the same time, while the JWs don't receive the same scrutiny because those they kill are isolated individual occurences spread throughout the world over a longer period of time. We still don't know the total killed in the WTC destruction, but it will be in the thousands, but how many JWs have given their lives over the years due to the medical advice and prohibitions of the WTB&TS-- Hundreds, thousands? I would bet it's in the thousands. Beyond that are the issues of alternative military service, the covering up of crimes, like pedophilia, the Malawi/Mexico tragedy and so on that have killed, maimed, and done irreperable harm to large numbers of people. Where does extremism seperate itself from non-extremist behavior?

  CPiolo
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  GinnyTosken

  When you speak of death among JWs, I am reminded of these words from M. Scott Peck's People of the Lie:

  When I say that evil has to do with killing, I do not mean to restrict myself to corporeal murder. Evil is also that which kills spirit. There are various essential attributes of life--particularly human life--such as sentience, mobility, awareness, growth, autonomy, will. It is possible to kill or attempt to kill one of these attributes without actually killing the body. Thus we may "break" a horse or even a child without harming a hair on its head. Erich Fromm was acutely sensitive to this fact when he broadened the definition of necrophilia to include the desire of certain people to control others--to make them controllable, to foster their dependency, to discourage their capacity to think for themselves, to diminish their unpredictability and originality, to keep them in line. Distinguishing it from a "biophilic" person, one who appreciates and fosters the variety of life forms and the uniqueness of the individual, he demonstrated a "necrophilic character type," whose aim it is to avoid the inconvenience of life by transforming others into obedient automatons, robbing them of their humanity.

  (bolding mine)

  I greatly pity the living dead among Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Ginny
• 

  DannyBear

  Ginny,

  Understand that in almost every corner of the earth, there exsists overt and hidden terrorists.

  Our primary target happens to be BL who happens to reside under the protection of the Taliban, who themselves are a bastard child of Islamic fundy's. I see the big picture.

  Having said that, it then should not matter where any of these animals hale from, it seems to be a proven fact that BL/Taliban can be considered the 'head of the snake'. Yes, even if we take him out, like a venomous snake head, even when severed it is still dangerous.

  So the coalition of governments that go to this war, it seems, do understand that this 'search and destroy' mission, may well take years, with fighting on many continents. I hope they do not just go after the head, but have the will to go all the way. Making it so uncomfortable, so costly, that any cells of hatred monger's will just find it to costly, to even consider 'a threat' let alone acts of terror.

  Danny
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  wasasister

  Great post, Ginny; and as usual, your sources are fascinating.

  As this situation unfolds, I can see more and more parallels between hard-line JW's and Islamic fundamentalists.

  I had a disturbing conversation with my Witness daughter today. We were looking at the recent People magazine, which features many disturbing images of the destruction. She seemed greatly shaken by this, so I asked her if she had been out in service since the events of last Tuesday. She said she had, and that they had been "encouraged" to keep their message simple and to briefly offer a tract. I replied that was good, because some of the literature - as recently as the Revelation Climax Book - featured graphic pictures very much like the ones we were looking at in the magazine. I suggested people at the doors would not find such images comforting. I also pointed out that those illustrations went so far as to show smiling happy faces, depicting some who would be happy to see such destruction.

  Her reply chilled me to the bone. She said, "Well, I'll be happy when that happens, too, because it will mean this mess is finally over!" Trying not to show my consternation, I said, "Of course that means many times the deaths we are hearing about must occur. I wouldn't expect the public to understand how that is a good thing." We went back and forth a bit on this topic and she was clearly uncomfortable, but her concluding remark was:
  "How many chances should these people get, anyway?"

  This is my daughter, the most gentle, kind person you can imagine...rejoicing at prospect of the greusome deaths of billions of people. I was sick at my stomach.

  Most JW's have the exact same mind-set as the Islamic extremists: "If God wills it, death is good."
• 

  CPiolo

  Wasasister:

  My wife, much like your daughter, is a kind, gentle, and loving person, but when it comes to the WT, its beliefs and dogma, she is unbendable. It really is chilling, but it does give one some insight as to how seemingly rational human beings perform such irrational acts, and into the power of religious fervor.

  CPiolo
• 

  Grunt

  You said:The Taliban must also consider these sacred words:

  Whosoever shields a Muslim, Allah will shield him in this world and the next. Allah will aid a servant of His so long as the servant aids his brother.
  --Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 36

  Considering their religious background, a decision about bin Laden is not simple. Should Lot have turned over his guests to the sinful men pounding on his door?"

  They don't have to consider anything except how to get and keep power and they haven't done a very good job of that.
  These men are not men of integrity. They do not really live by any "Holy Book" despite whatever lies they tell. They burn mosques, and Korans, torture fellow Muslims and even when they have a "visitor" they are not above killing them. These people are reaping what they have sown and the best punishment the US can give them is allowing them to punish themselves. Sadly we have to add to thier own self-inflicted punishment. Their "Muslim Warriors" have fled in cars, trucks and airplanes back when the civilians of New York were killed, they fled leaving the poor peasants there for the expected immediate bombing that didn't occur. As representatives of their society look at the "Muslim Warriors of the Jihad" on the plane. Just before taking the civilians in the planes hostage these suicide bombers were out drinking and trying to get out of paying the bill which helped identify them after the bombing. Then at an airport they almost fought a guy (five to one) over a parking space. They move on to slice up women on the airliners bad enough to get the pilots to leave the cabins and try to save them, promise the victims no one will be hurt and then they die in a blaze of shame which they see as glory. No, they are not religious men, as the drinking, lying and torturing women attests to. I don't think the problem is the concern with the Taliban is for a "guest" as much as it is concern for a PAYING guest. Just guessing, but judging by the rest of this guy's life, I doubt he will be there for the fireworks. He is a leader of suicide bombers and yet he lives? He says he wishes he were killed and yet he lives? Sounds like the sick mothers who have killed their children and then decided not to kill themselves to me. Real brave when others are doing the dying and all he does is give the money. I guess he thinks he is too important to die? These Muslim Warriors don't impress me much so far. They have a way of always torturing, mistreating or in the case of New York burning the women. I don't know the ratio of female secretaries to men, but it was probably high. These WARRIORS tend to surrender to male photographers when they are available if I remember the "Mother of All Wars" correctly. They can't run a real army. As soon as the outsiders like the US left after we gave them advisors and our weapons to defeat the Russians they immediately began to slaughter one another. That slaughter continues to this day. They just killed a hero of the war against the Russians, not in combat but by suicide, pretended to be journalists and had a bomb in their camera that killed them and their target. They seem to recognize that they can never win in a real contest and therefore give up and assume they will die but by trickery and lies can kill unsuspecting targets AS they die. If they can look really sheeplike and non-threatening they can kill a lot. As I said, they are their own worst punishment and no matter what the US does they will pay for their ignorance, arrogance and pigheadedness. I am including a page with examples of how they treated some elderly "guests." Any group who can make a big spectacle, much like the roman games, out of flogging a woman does not get much respect from me. The excuse was they are short on entertainment so floggings and amputations have taken that role. This is an excerpt taken from Human Rights Watch on just one of the massacres of other Moslems there. I left out the part about the large scale killings and just included their treatment of their elderly visitors:

  As reports of detentions and killings began to circulate through the district, groups of village elders sought meetings with Taliban commanders to ensure the security of their communities. According to a witness:

  The same day [January 10] news came that the Taliban were searching houses as far as Girdbayd, some five kilometers from Nayak. People coming from there said that the Taliban had killed some of the people there. We all discussed among ourselves whether this could be true or not. After a couple of days [January 11 or 12], eight or ten of the village elders decided that they must go to Nayak to discuss the security of the area with the Taliban. They set off on foot towards Nayak.

  The following is his account of what the elders told him:

  On the way there, near Qala Issa Khan [a hamlet about 500 meters west of Nayak, also known as Qala Arbab Hassan], the elders saw Jan Agha, a local Tajik commander, sitting in a Taliban "Datsun" (a pickup truck).10 Jan Agha was gesticulating at the elders, pointing to something in the village, but they could not work out what it was, and so they proceeded.
  The elders walked into Nayak unchallenged and went straight to the Taliban command post. They asked to see Commander Mullah Abdul Sattar, but he refused to see him. Then they managed to find Commander Haji Faqoori and after some persuasion, he managed to get Commander Sattar to see them. Sattar told the elders that he had just received orders from Kandahar, from Mullah [Mohammad] Omar [the head of the Taliban movement], declaring a general amnesty. He instructed the elders to go and meet with [Hizb-i Wahdat commander] Khalili and tell him not to fight any more, or there would be more killing.
  On their return, Jan Agha told the elders what he had been pointing to and they saw a pile of bodies at the edge of Qala Issa Khan.

  According to the same witness, the elders subsequently met with Khalili, but he refused to stop fighting. Fearful of further conflict, the witness said, many local residents started to leave the area.

  On at least two occasions, the Taliban killed delegations of Hazara elders who had attempted to intercede with them. On January 9, elders of Kata Khana gathered to meet with the Taliban. The Taliban arrested the entire group and killed everyone except two neighborhood leaders. In another case, the elders of Bed Mushkin village met with the Taliban to discuss security for the area. All were killed except one.11

  The main execution site in Yakaolang appears to have been outside the relief agency in Nayak where the detainees from Dar-i Ali were killed. Witnesses also reported seeing piles of bodies in four other locations in and around Nayak: outside the district hospital, in the ravine behind the mosque in the old bazaar area, outside the prayer hall of Mindayak village, and at Qala Arbab Hassan. Of these, the largest pile of bodies was at Qala Arbab Hassan. Other killings were reported from neighborhoods in areas surrounding the district center, including outside the leprosy and tuberculosis clinics. A witness who visited Yakaolang district four weeks after the incident inspected one of the mass graves at Bed Mushkin village, in which twenty-six bodies had been found. One of the bodies was that of a seventeen-year-old boy, Mir Ali, much of whose skin had been removed either prior to or after his death.12 In a separate case, seven men were shot dead at the Zarin crossroad near the leprosy clinic in Yakaolang.13

  I wouldn't count on their hospitality. They are hypocrites who seek their own power above any real good. No better or worse than Saddam. Another noble Muslim Warrior.