I read the Revised King James Version I was given at my baptism into the Episcopal Church at 9 and I concluded Jesus was the son of man and the son of God. I couldn't find a place where he claimed to be his father.
About early christianity: Good link!
by Hellrider 43 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Hellrider
I read the Revised King James Version I was given at my baptism into the Episcopal Church at 9 and I concluded Jesus was the son of man and the son of God. I couldn't find a place where he claimed to be his father.
No wonder, cause that`s not what trinitarianism is. What you just described,is called Monarchianism (or modalism), and it has been considered a heresy for 1800 years. What you just described, never was, isn`t, and never will be what trinitarianism is, but still, this is what jws and ex-jws believe trinitarianism is, because they bought into the strawman that the WTS created.
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FlyingHighNow
Jesus' father is God. For him to claim to be God would be for him to claim to be his father. That is what I concluded at 9 years old. I had not heard of JW's and I had only just been told what the trinity was by my mother. I read the gospels on my own and couldn't find a place where he claimed to be God.
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gumby
So Hellrider....jesus is god eh? If that's the case...then this nice man in the OT was bi-polar. He killed people including little babies by the droves in the OT...but in the NT he loved them and would have denounced any type of massacre of children. Why ...if Jesus is god, would he be so forgiving towards the heathen.....such as the prostitute, those with demons, those that actually killed him, yet be so unforgiving and mean in the OT? Can you honestly say Jesus was the one who slew millions in the OT?
Gumby
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FlyingHighNow
Jesus set the matter straight about God and love and all that.
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Leolaia
Leolaia, Helenistic Judaism is wrong too!
If that's the case, then we shouldn't encounter such things in the NT as Paul talking about the body as a tent or the possibility of being "out of the body", or 2 Peter talking about elements melting or sharing in divine nature through self-control, or Hebrews talking about archetypes and typologies or the Son being the exact copy of God's nature, or Paul making cosmological references to personified powers, authorities, elements, and rulers, or the author of Luke-Acts employing historiography, the symposium genre, and the epic genre in his writing, or Paul's fond use of athletic metaphors, or the view that Jesus' death constitutes a ransom, or the idea in Colossians that the pleroma resides in Christ, or the Johannine view of Jesus as Logos, or literary allusion to books like Wisdom, or references to an abyss and "lake of fire" in Revelation and Tartarus in 2 Peter, etc. Much of what we find in the NT is either reflective of Hellenistic Judaism or draws on Greek thought in modest ways (i.e. much less than intentional "Christian philosophy" in the second century).
What is not sane about this thought process is that you are suggesting that people's minds be influenced by 2nd century thought instead of the opposing 1st century thought that has no trinity or any other philosophy not taught by the canon of the bible.
There was no single "opposing 1st century thought". It was just as much a spectrum as "2nd century thought" was, neither was there a sharp dichotomous boundary between the two.
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Mary
Gumsmart said: jesus is god eh? If that's the case...then this nice man in the OT was bi-polar. He killed people including little babies by the droves in the OT...but in the NT he loved them and would have denounced any type of massacre of children. Why ...if Jesus is god, would he be so forgiving towards the heathen.....such as the prostitute, those with demons, those that actually killed him, yet be so unforgiving and mean in the OT? Can you honestly say Jesus was the one who slew millions in the OT?
Wow! That's a damn good point hon........
Actually, I found a very interesting quote about another deity (Hercules) that might shed some light on why it didn't take the early Christian church very long to make Jesus out to be God, when in fact, he was a man. This is taken from Wikipedia:
Christian dating
In Christian circles a Euhemerist reading of the widespread Heracles/Hercules cult was attributed to a historical figure who had been offered cult status after his death.We all know that whenever a popular figure dies a tragic death, it is very common for those left behind to deify them. This isn't just an ancient practice---we still do it today (examples: JFK, Princess Diana and Elvis).
I believe that Jesus existed and was a good man with a following. He was attempting to expose power and corruption amongst those ruling and died a martyr's death because of it. For his followers who were left behind after he died, it would not have taken much (or long) for them to start making out that he wasn't just the Son of God----he was God himself.
The rest is history.
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Hellrider
FlyingHighNow:
Jesus' father is God. For him to claim to be God would be for him to claim to be his father.
...well, not according to the early church. According to them, the Son, the Father and the Holy Spirit were all part of God, but they were all distinct and separate! They were one, but still three. I know this is a mystery, and impossible to grasp for the logical mind (mine included), but this is what christianity was. You can of course claim that this is just silly, but this is the 1700-year-old tradition before the adventist ofsprings of the 17th and 18th century, that you became a part of, but by the time of your birth, the mystery had been cleaned out (trinitarianism removed) from some of the adventist-cults. So, according to the early church, when Jesus prayed to the Father in heaven, Jesus was here on earth, as a mortal man, stripped of his God-powers. The Son, partly stripped of God-powers, prays to the Father. The Father is not "higher" than the Son, when the Son is not on earth, but at this particular time, the Son is on earth, and is therefore lower than the Father. But after he died, he went back up into heaven, and became equal with the Father again (because they are both God...), but they were still distinct, and not the same person. This is the view of early christianity, and this is trinitarianism! You can of course claim that it`s all bs, but if you`re saying that trinitarianism means believing that Jesus was his own Father, then you are wrong. This view of a reincarnated God (The Father comes to earth as the Son, then dies, is ressurected and then comes back as the Holy Spirit) is called Monarchianism, Modalism and Sabellianism. Tertuallian speaks out against it, and calls it Patripassian Monarchism, which means "The Father suffered...(on the cross)". This heresy was cleaned out of the church in the third century. The trinitarians believed that when Jesus prays to his Father, he does so as a man here on earth, stripped of powers, to the Father in heaven, from which the Son (when not here on earth) emanates from, like the rays from the sun. And the rays are also the sun...()
Of course, I don`t really believe this (I`m not a christian). I started the thread to offer people a good link, and to help clear up some misunderstandings about trinitarianism.
gumby:
He he, good point. I wouldn`t call him bipolar, cause depression doesn`t usually result in violence, I would rather use the word psychopath. If I was a christian, I would probably have argued that you have misunderstood the OT, and that the OT-god wasn`t really that violent...(), or I would say that "it was all part of Gods plan, and the people Yahweh killed in the OT had to be killed for this plan to be fulfilled".
I believe that Jesus existed and was a good man with a following. He was attempting to expose power and corruption amongst those ruling and died a martyr's death because of it. For his followers who were left behind after he died, it would not have taken much (or long) for them to start making out that he wasn't just the Son of God----he was God himself.
The rest is history.
I agree with Mary. But I think the idea that Jesus was "God himself" (in one way or another) started much earlier than the 2nd century. Otherwise it would have had to jump out from nowhere in the 2nd century, with no references to it from the 1st century! - but I think I see these references both among what the earliest of the church fathers said, as well as in the NT itself.
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Kaput
Can you honestly say Jesus was the one who slew millions in the OT?
No...but in the NT he commands a front row seat when the angels put a whuppin' on his enemies! Luke 19:27 -- "Moreover, these enemies of mine that did not want me to become king over them bring here and slaughter them before me."
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Deputy Dog
Butters
The bible plainly says that God is never tempted ever! Jesus is.
Really? Looks to me like He was tempted in Massah!
Deu 6:16
Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.The very point you tried to make is the proof that you are wrong.
Mat 4:6
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.Mat 4:7
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.If Jesus is not claiming Deity here, What is he doing?
Gumby
It's like always say......ask 20 people who have never read the bible before to read the NT, and when they are finished reading it, ask them who Jesus is, and I'll bet you wouldn't get one person who would say he was god almighty but rather that he is gods son.....a seperate entity entirely.
Ask 20 people that know the culture of that time and that can read the original languages and see what happens!
Mary
Gumsmart said: jesus is god eh? If that's the case...then this nice man in the OT was bi-polar. He killed people including little babies by the droves in the OT...but in the NT he loved them and would have denounced any type of massacre of children. Why ...if Jesus is god, would he be so forgiving towards the heathen.....such as the prostitute, those with demons, those that actually killed him, yet be so unforgiving and mean in the OT? Can you honestly say Jesus was the one who slew millions in the OT?
Wow! That's a damn good point hon........No, that is not a good point at all. God the Father in the OT is not subject to the law. God the Son in the NT come as a man, to be in subjection to the law.