Questions Surrounding Evolution

by The wanderer 43 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  The wanderer

  Questions Surrounding Evolution

  Regarding this subject, the thought in mind is to ask
  some pertinent questions regarding evolution in
  general.
  
  It must be strongly emphasized that there is no wish
  to be critical, insulting, demeaning or otherwise
  condescending toward anyone.
  
  There are some questions that have provoked some
  thought and if you as an individual can provide some-
  thing helpful regarding them all the better.

  Coming from a Design Background

  Having experience in design has led me to this
  question.
  A wrist watch as we all know has a designer. It is
  complex mechanism, yet simple in comparison to
  the universe, the earth, and the species on the
  planet.
  
  Yet, no one would argue that a wrist watch has
  a designer. However, there are individuals that
  believe that the universe, earth, and species
  on this planet were placed here by a "big
  bang" theory.

  ---

  Please explain the logic of this "big bang" theory
  using the simple illustration of a wrist-watch in the
  paragraph above and comparing it the complexities
  of the universe.

  Respectfully,

  The Wanderer
• 

  Satanus

  A wrist watch as we all know has a designer. It is
  complex mechanism, yet simple in comparison to
  the universe, the earth, and the species on the
  planet.

  Yes, and also much simpler than it's designer. Before we get into it, in your illustration, could you explain if the watch designer was designed, and who designed him? Is each preceeding designer many magnitudes of order more complex than the following one?

  S

  S
• 

  Satanus

  Ps, if you can't explain these questions, then perhaps your illustration is flawed, broken.

  S
• 

  skeptic2

  We have two possibilities to explain the apparent design in nature.

  1. Evolution, which effortlessly shows how we can get from simple to complex organisms that look designed (they are in effect designed by natural selection).

  2. God, who is himself complex, and therefore subject to the same argument 'who designed him'.

  Remember that God is the ultimate wristwatch.
• 

  Qcmbr

  I thought it was an accepted fact concerning this universe that we know jack about 90% of the matter that composes it and the other 10% we have to extrapolate from what we can see and what science tells us about our own speck of universe. In other words we know a tiny smidgeon and yet we have many claiming that the book on God and the way the universe was made is closed. I don't think anyone here no matter how many phds or books have been read is in any position to proclaim any real knowledge about this since we blatantly don't know. The argument about God being complex and requiring a designer is a strawman favoured by the intellectually lazy since the scriptures talk about man being formed from the dust of this earth, a dust we can apply scientific knowledge to but it doesn't say God was made of the same stuff. What about the spiritual, immaterial universe that the scriptures talk about? Why do we have to apply evolution to a spiritual being??? The reality is that because we are so driven by cause and effect physics that we cannot place God before His creation, we struggle to conceptualise of life and intelligence outside of organic cellular matter so we force God to exist after the elements but that is exactly the opposite of what the bible claims.
• 

  Qcmbr

  Let us propose another hypothesis: 1/ Intelligence exists utside of time and space, in fact intelligence is the ultimate framework and source of anything. 2/ This intelligence generates time and space (possibly via a creation event such as a big bang). Time and space define matter. 3/ With matter then intelligence generates an ordered , self replicating counterpart(biological life) to itself which mimics the intelligence (spirit) and without said intelligence reverts to a state of chaos and decomposition. When united this spirit and body are fused as a soul. This soul can experience what the spirit alone could not and matter alone could not randomly self-organise. 4/ At some future point the vast experiment and exercise can be restarted. 5/ Since intelligence is the framework then the physical matter and all the energy in the world could theoretically not exist and sum to 0. If this seems far fetched I play computer games that fit this scenario quite well. I have a PC that runs simulations of events constrained by mathematical laws and rules written by the developer. The games played make decisions based upon competing factors and are utterly unaware of the game developer. I can restart the game at any time I like. I'm not arguing that we need to ignore science as that is daft - just that we aren't yet smart enough to start making pointless pronouncements about God's non-existence. 16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
• 

  greendawn

  I also see it as a question of common sense that the mind boggling complexity of the living things on earth imply the existence of a creator with supreme intelligence. Even the simplest living things are extremely complicated.
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  AlmostAtheist

  >>we aren't yet smart enough to start making pointless pronouncements about God's non-existence

  Does that mean we are equally unsmart enough to make pronouncements about his existence?

  I'm with Satanus on the "design" thing. You can't point to something complex and claim it MUST have a designer, then accept that the designer didn't have one. It's either a rule, or it's not.

  Dave
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  Qcmbr

  Unfortunately AA that is exactly what we are being asked to do here. If we bio-engineer a life form in 100 years time then we have a designed life generated by an undesigned event (us - assuming we follow the this argument) ergo it is possible to have an undesigned object generate a designed one. There is no rule at all. In quantum physics cause and effect don't work but the aggregation of what happens there gives us a discernable cause and event rule at our physical observation level. We cannot apply our physical rules to an entire universe we can only perceive a thin sliver of.
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  Qcmbr

  ..and yes AA we are unable to make any pronouncements in and of ourselves about any Gods existence as well!! He tends to do that Himself.