WTS involvement with politics/UN exaggerated?

by troubled 31 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  troubled

  Hi,

  I've seen the threads on the WTS' involvement with CESNUR, Swaggert, and the UN. Since then, I've done additional research on the Internet, including accessing the UN's webiste and searching for "Watchtower" and "Jehovah's Witnesses." And I am concerned that many of the posts on this website grossly overexaggerate the degree of the WTS's involvement and its purpose.

  In my internet research, the only connection I have seen between the WTS and CESNUR or the UN is in situations on the world scene threaten their right to religious freedom.

  The definition of a NGO is very broad. Yes, it says they need to advance the UN charter, but perhaps their advancement is in the area of "freedom of worship" and nothing else. I see no involvement of the WTS in connection with military service, politics, or the like.

  In the case of Swaggert, the "amicus curiae" was a legal document submitted in connection with the Swaggert case. The WTS was not a party to Swaggert's case. Additionally, the amicus curiae was submitted not as "for" or "against" the Swaggert case, but as a "neutral" one. It's clear that the WTS filed this legal document only because the decision in the court case could affect JWs as a religious group. Granted, it had to do with taxes. And they should have been up front about this. But they were in no way supporting Swaggert or "false religion" per se. I've addressed this in an earlier thread so won't go into detail again.

  As for the involvement with CESNUR, it's a Center for the Study of New Religions. The only involement I've seen in my research is that the WTS had a representative give a presentation. How is this any different from a JW college student in a University "Study of Religion" course getting up and giving a talk on their religious beliefs, along with other students of different religions?

  For example, I understand that at the University of Colorado in Boulder, there was a day in which different religions set up booths to answer questions and offer literature to interested parties. I don't see this as an interfaith effort. Why would the CESNUR talks be any different?

  To say that it's an interfaith effort to use the same avenue to reach people would be like saying that the JWs and Mormons are in cahoots because they both go door-to-door to desseminate their religous beliefs.

  Yes, the WTS has used educational centers to advance their beliefs, and they appeal to the human political authorities when their religious rights are violated. But I'm not seeing where their involvement with the UN, CESNUR, or Swaggert is a violation of separateness from the world.

  Am I missing something?
• 

  dungbeetle

  Of course you're missing something...

  1) For more years than I care to remember, the your 'faithful and discreet slave' has stated unequvically that the UN is 'unclean' and 'disgusting', that it is 'not to be touched'to the point where Witnesses were expected to lay down their lives rather than 'touch' it, and of course they did so. The WTBS has trumpeted these deaths loudly, as though blind unthinking obedience to 'man rather than God' is anything to be proud of.

  2) And most importantly, this information has been kept from most Jehovah's Witnesses. Some 'faith' and 'discretion'. Wonder how the surviving family members of the dead ones feel about this now.

  Thank you troubled for giving me another opportunity to publicize this info for the benefit of Jehovah's Witnesses lurkers...

  Always a pleasure.

  dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.
• 

  NameWithheld

  Well, being an N.G.O. pretty plainly implies that the org that is a member "Supports the UN's charters" etc. Don't recall the exact terminology, but you seem to have read it.

  Even though they are doing it to 'further kingdom work' (according to them I'm sure) how does that jive with their commands to 'be no part of the world' and to remain 'seperate from the gov'ts'? How can they have their cake and eat it too? You can bet that if a JW joined the Red Cross, YMCA, whatever local charity - even if they said it was to 'further kingdom work' they would get a stern talking to, if you know what I mean.

  And as far as these interfaith days goes, I know I sure never heard anything that encouraged JWs to take part in these. If any did it was a personal decision - and more than likely had no blessing from the WTBTS. Who can say for sure. But the WTBTS does NOT encourage people to take part in activities like that - it's all door to door, phone, letters, etc. And they seem to be wishy-washy on the 'alternative' (non door to door) witnessing methods.

  It all boils down to this - whatever their justifcations, explinations, etc, they have gone to bed with their 'wild beast' and fornicated with it. You WILL NOT hear them toot their horn about this NGO thing because the average JW would be shocked. And they know it. But to protect themselves they had to take part in it. So they are no different than any other major religion, and THAT IS THE POINT!!!
• 

  Trevor Scott

  Personally I don't see anything wrong with any group committing to support the UN; I don't think this is really the issue. In the case of the WTS, I believe the issue in question is one of honesty/integrity.

  The WTS has for decades condemned the UN, equating it with the scarlet beast of Revelation and the Disgusting Thing of Daniel.

  So how can they in good conscience commit to:

  "mobilizing public opinion in support of the UN [aka, Disgusting Thing]"

  "undertake to support the work of the United Nations [aka, Scarlet Beast]"

  "building knowledge of and support for the organization".

  Etc, etc.

  This is classic WTS hypocrisy, and I disagree that the issue is being grossly exaggerated. On the contrary actually.

  TS,
• 

  Satanus

  troubled

  Once again the wt has lost faith in their jehovah, like the poor guy who reached out to steady their idol known as the arch of the cov -(don't like using these terms). Supposedly the big j killed him.

  The wt probably uses the smarmy example of king david to justify their actions. He took refuge among the philistines and attacked their cities to show his appreciation. Then, his specialty, lied about it to his hosts.

  If they had true faith and if jehovah was anywhere near the god the bible claims, the wt wouldn't need to break their own principles and then lie to conceal those acts.

  Reaching back now, i will remind troubled of jehovahs supposed mightiness. Jehovah, the mighty man of war. stand still and see your salvation. You will not need to fight. Lead satan/gog with hooks. Let your yes mean yes. Jehovah will fight for you. A christian does not need to fight. Demons are subjected to you. Or to those effects.

  And so, troubled, the reason the wt resorts to subtrafuge is because they are on their own. 'Jehovah' has done nothing. Everything that the wt accomplished was done by them through militancy and hard work. Read about other cults like scientology and moonies and the trials their founders went through. Read the origins of islam. You will see similar patterns. L ron hubbard, mohammed and sung yung moon were amazing people. That doesn't validate their religions.

  He who doesn't live his faith doesn't have any.

  S
• 

  hillary_step

  Troubled,

  Thank you for your interesting post. What I state below is of a general nature and does not specifically deal with your noted issues but bears on the subject of fact-finding, which I think is at the basis of your post.

  Knowing the focused but often hidden agenda that the WTS has and its ability to manipulate facts so cunningly one indeed must be very careful in ascertaining the facts. You are quite correct that often the WTS is attacked by its opponents whatever choices that they make, this makes it all the more important to be sure of our information. XJW’s are not by default correct on all their conclusions because they are XJW’s.

  This in no way excuses the WTS affiliation with ‘wordly’ authorities however remote, especially given their inexcusable and vitriolic attacks on them for many decades. They are after all supposed to forgo even the ‘appearance of evil’ by association and as such they set themselves up as targets by their Corporate association with them and should indeed take the stripes for their actions.

  However, it must honestly be recognized that some XJW have their own agenda, sometimes equally as focused, often equally as manipulative as the WTS. I long ago concluded that many of the posts on this board were the result of mere reaction to speculative gossip and half-truths, a sort of digital feeding frenzy made even more wild by the inability to draw a bead on the real target. For example, FredHall and YK, two obviously sad and lost souls, immediately provoke an avalanche of posts even though the Board is well aware that generally what they speak is nonsense. Why the reaction? The reason is that they have become substitutes for all the elders, CO’s, members of the GB etc. who have hurt us.

  However, you do need to know Troubled, that not just a few within the WTS at very Senior levels are deeply disturbed by many of the dangerous decisions made by the GB. For example I spoke with a CO friend just yesterday who is deeply concerned at the part he is playing in upholding an obviously flawed policy on blood transfusions. He is seriously considering resignation, especially given that I passed information to him about the WTS and its illicit affair with the UN in Africa! My own desire would be for the WTS to get out of the ‘exclusivity’ business, imho the main reason for most of its excesses, and concentrate on developing the spirit of Christianity rather than sitting on the fence of Corporate Judaism.

  You will find this Board much easier to deal with Troubled if you recognize that both JW’s and XJW’s have axes to grind and subsequently whatever you hear and read from either source should be tested. Continue your research, but be prepared to make honest decisions based on the facts that you unearth, beware the gossip and innuendo, they will just devour valuable emotions.

  If I can help, you can reach me by e mail.

  Kindest regards - HS
• 

  Winston

  HS,

  Well said!

  Just a side question HS, do you climb mountains?
• 

  troubled

  Points taken. I'll not only scan, but read the info in detail. Particularly the quotes in question. Yes, I also remember the strong admonition to "not touch the unclean thing." So will do more research into this matter. I'm not trying to argue, just get the facts straight.

  Dungbeetle:
  You've responded to several of my posts in a sarcastic, argumentative, illogical way (i.e., see the thread "Can I Say One More Thing?"). I don't know your personal circumstances, but you are obviously very angry. If you are looking for a good fight and/or your goal is to find a JW to dump on, I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree. I'm looking for information, not angry vengeful debates. Therefore, the posts I will respond to will be the ones presented in a respectful, nonblaming way.
• 

  hawkaw

  Troubled,

  Hello!!!! I thought you were leaving and I am soooo glad you are back.

  I see everyone's point here and I tend to look at the double standards I see with the WT on this UN issue. However, you do make a valid point too. Reminds me of Seeker's excellent points when it comes to the Swaggart case.

  However I noted something way more important. YOU ARE RESEARCHING AND LOOKING IT UP FOR YOURSELF!!!!!

  Whooooo!!!!!! This is great. You are thinking for yourself and applying critical thinking skills.

  Keep up the great work and remember the difference between a "fact" and an "opinion".

  hawk
• 

  chester

  hillary_step said
  

  Continue your research, but be prepared to make honest decisions based on the facts that you unearth, beware the gossip and innuendo, they will just devour valuable emotions.

  I really like that advice!!!!

  Chester