Long story short: My nan, mum's mum (mum's a JW), has two living sisters, Aunty A and Aunty J; none of them are witnesses and don't like JWs very much. They're all in their eighties. My nan lives in the state I grew up in but my (great) aunts live in the state I live in now and are visiting my nan. Aunty J has just been diagnosed with lung cancer. In mum's words: J mentioned last week that there was a lump on her neck and after going in with her for the past 4 days to Drs., tests and oncologists she has been diagnosed with lung cancer with the lump on her neck a malignant lymph node. We are still to get the results of the last tests that were done on Friday but it doesn't look too good. From there we will be referred to a thoracic surgeon and from there who knows. She has 4 sons in (my current state) but she has opted to stay in (my old state) because she has the support system of us here. A has decided to stay for the duration as well .... so now it begins as aunty J has decided that I am her mouthpiece and organiser. When asked where she is going for treatment she replies ... 'I don't care as long as (P - my mum) is with me' She even has me down as her next of kin. So it looks like my time will once again be divided till her situation resolves one way or the other. That's fine ... but at the moment just trying to keep 3 elderly ladies from unravelling. First, good for mum for being there for them, she's good like that, although, ah never mind. My concern: mum is a JW. If she gets medical power of attorney, which seems likely, she will be in a position to authorise or not, any blood required. As far as I know, if she does that she'd be disfellowshipped, but anyway mum is very anti-blood and is likely to talk Aunty J into pre-refusing it ('such a high risk of disease...') and therefore not be in the position to have to choose herself. Mum is very persuasive and these three ladies are very submissive under normal circumstances, but will be especially so now. Aunty J has these four sons. Legally, they're her next-of-kin, but I don't know what forms might have been signed or what the interstate issue does. - should I accept that Aunty J has made her choice and mind my business, - should I talk to mum about it (which I want to do, but this will give her the idea to get medical PoA before anybody else does) - should I track down her sons and tell them the potential of the situation, and encourage them to get medical PoA (although I'm not sure that's actually possible from out of state). I've met them but don't know their names or numbers, and the only way to get that info is through channels that will get back to mum. And it's likely that as soon as I tell them 'hi I'm your second cousin and my mum thinks she has nok over your mum and this is what could happen...' they'll barge in and it will go to hell in some way; maybe Aunty J doesn't want to go home or have treatment with her sons nearby because they don't get along. She's never talked about them when I'm around, I didn't even know there were four. I don't know if my mum is actually the best option for Aunty J anyway. - should I wait to see if there's going to be surgery (the only scenario in which I think blood would be needed) or if she decides to go the palliative option - should I call Aunty J or nan (I think they're all at Nans place) and see if I can get more info and maybe bring the topic up. I spent a few days with them only a couple of weeks ago, while I was over there trying to fix things up with my folks. We talked a lot about the situation with my JW family and they were very supportive, and I'm pretty sure she'd know where I'm coming from if I'm asking her if everything really is okay with mum in charge. I've polled a few non-witnesses and they've all told me to contact her sons. Mr Frass thinks I should accept that Aunty J is just about to die, blood or no blood, and it's pretty pointless to get in everybody's face. Another buddy says that it's not my business and I'm letting my experience and hurt get in the way of my judgment - it's Aunty J's choice and her son's primary responsibility to get a handle on all the facts. I don't think that under this kind of stress they're going to make the mums-a-JW connection, and I feel morally obligated to do this for them, but I don't know if I should put my hanging-by-a-thread relationship with my parents in the toilet; because taking action on this would do that, for probably no point other than fulfilling my obligation. I have gotten the impression that Aunty J has had some kind of fallout with her sons, and so she might be at risk of being neglected. I'm going to let it be for now - in a few days we'll know if there are treatment options. I'm under the impression that there aren't and it's all moot anyway. But if you have any thoughts about this I'd appreciate some input from people who get it, thanks.
Urgent: Moral guidance required
by sass_my_frass 16 Replies latest jw friends
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Stezza
Hi nice to meet you
What a difficult situation.
My understanding of the Medical Power of Attorney, under Australian law is that the 2 people must sit down and decide what is acceptable and what is not. For people availing of it without specific issues it usually boils down to when the machines should be switched off and decisions such as do not resucitate. Most witnesses would go power of attorney as they all have the same belief and know that they will act out their wishes. And that is the vital point 'act out their wishes'. Your mum is obliged to make sure your Auntie's wishes are carried out not her own. If your auntie wants all the bells and whistles in an effort ot get a cure and that includes blood, your mum is obliged to allow that. She cannot allow her own feelings to get involved. If your auntie requests do not rescitate after 2 weeks in a coma your mum has to make sure that is honoured even if it upsets your nan and other aunt. Your mum has to carry out your aunt's interests and not her own. If your aunt wants blood for example maybe broach your mum and ask if that would breach her christain conscience to allow that, and if she is sensible it should not as it is her aunt's decision not hers. You may find your mum has issues with the do not resucitate issue as well. If you do not think you can broach this with your mum what about your dad?
If your mum did something silly like refuse blood becasue she is a witness all you have to say to the hospital is that your aunt is not a witness and you will find that the whole thing will be in court very quickly, or they will ignore your mother and go ahead. The HLC will not help your aunt as she is not part of the congregation and I did know some of the HLC and they would not touch it.
This is an issue that concerns me deeply as my mum is still a witless and I would not be suprised if she tried to pull some stunt if one of us needed it, wasting precious time in an emergency.
Would it be possible to see if you and your aunt are compatible and offer to donate blood for her use?
Anyway hope that helps.
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sass_my_frass
Hi Stezza, good to meet you too, thanks for that.
Yeah I know that as a medical PoA mum would be 'supposed to' carry out Aunty J's wishes but... well I know my mum, and she thinks that she knows best. I've recently heard that as a Medical PoA their only real authority is to provide the 'go' for any treatment options that the patient has previously signed up for, and they can't 'deny' any treatment that the doctor considers reasonable. I'm not sure that's the case but it would reduce mum's authority even as medical PoA, if J had already signed the blood transfusion release forms.
I'm equally worried that mum is just going to influence J to refuse blood anyway. Mum is very persuasive. I don't think she's the right one to be giving medical advice. Mum takes placebos for diseases she thinks she has. A doctor gives her little dropper bottles of water that have been 'laser-treated' by being sat in a little machine made of plastic-coated plywood, that has LEDs that light up when it is 'operating'. Deep down, mum thinks that Aunty J could be cured if she'd just see her idiot doctor. It doesn't help that Mum's sister has serious health problems due to some bad doctoring in the fifties (we all remember Thalidomide...), so Nan isn't a fan of doctors and medication herself.
I'm not sure how relevant it would become, and whether it matters that in the end, mum wouldn't be able to sign a release, as that would 'offend her conscience' (she has quite a sensitive conscience; she had the book study at their house for 20 years and has had it moved away because she talks to me, her disfellowshipped daughter, and wouldn't want to 'stumble anybody' by retaining the privilege ).
I don't have a good enough understanding of either the medical or legal implications at this point. Right now I'm mostly trying to decide whether it's actually my business anyway, or whether I should leave it to Aunty J and her sons, and Nan and their other sister, to work it out.
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Stezza
Well the legal system is quite strict on what these POA's do. If there is any thought that your mum is trying to unreasonably (in the courts opinion) influence a sick little old lady who does not practice that religion I cannot see how they can allow her to make such a decision. Your mum can influnce all she likes but if she is unconscious needing blood and the hospital is aware that auntie is not a witness, they will either ignore your mother or get an injunction and say that your mother unreasonably influenced her. I am sure the other auntie will say at the required houe she is not a witness. I think she picked your mother because she can hold her own, not because of her view on blood.
These POA's are practically worthless on anyone under the age of 18 as they are vulnerable. Elderly people are protected for a similiar reason. I would not be suprised if a rich old person gets sick, a witness with a POA with adult children in and out of the truth, if the one in the Truth has the POA and the old one is a bit potty or there is large estate at stake, I would not be suprised if the wordly children did not go to court to get some control. Perhaps this has happened already? Anybody?
I think you need to be honest with your mum and tell her that she had better speak to your aunties sooner then later about what she wants/does not. If she is that old and ill, there are going to be a few difficult decisions to be made, blood being only one of them. Let your mum decide if she thinks she can handle the stress on her biblically trained conscience and let her know you are only thinking of her. Is it possible you can have a phone call with your auntie and say something in jest like 'make sure mum lets you have a blood transfusion' ha ha. Old ladies want to hang around. This will put the fire under her.
Also if she gets very ill there will need to be a phone call to the sons to see her, and when they ask why is she dying and told as she would not take blood there will be tears. They could probably sue your mum and the hospital for wrongful death and the HLC will be in no way involved as your aunt is not a witness - that is quite a scary possibility. It would be a civil case and all that has to be proved is that on the 'balance of probabilites' that blood would have helped her treatment etc. If you get a son sobbing that the lack of blood transfusion, prevented him making amends, well it could get messy. This mind you is the worse case scenario, and due to expense probably would not get to court, but solicitors letters are expensive. The thing is your mum may have no intention of influencing, sound her out first.
Blood or no blood, it is a huge repsonsibility.
I can read you on the crazy mum health stuff. My mother has just told me she has cured her brain tumour and a sister at the hall (a nurse no less) said that was why she was tired because her system that had been fighting it. I know two people who have had brain tumours, one has survived only because her local hospital in the states is the hospital in the hospital in the US to go to and the other one died leaving 4 small children. What is it with kooky medical BS??
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sass_my_frass
Yeah, I should start by talking to mum and hoping that she is above then running off to get medical PoA - but she's the kind of person to consider it her responsibility as she thinks she's the only person around who can see 'the big picture'. I'll call Nan later today (big time gap) and fish for some more info. Another possibility is that mum misses being useful and is exagerrating her role, and Aunty J is just keeping stum while she works it over in her mind.
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sass_my_frass
I guess I'll submit this as my least successful thread...
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Stezza
Have you talked toyour mum and auntie??
By the way I fly home for 3 weeks next week and I would love to meet you.
When I left, I did not speak to anyone about it, this is my first time on this board and I would love to meet up with someone esp another aussie.
We can swap mad mother health stories and we can meet in public like a dodgy internet date!
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sass_my_frass
Hehe sure thing, I'd love to meet up. We've got another few weeks here before we move.
Aunty J saw the doctor and there are no treatment options, except maybe chemo which she's going to think about. She has been given twelve months. She is coming back tomorrow and I am hoping that her sons heal the rift so that she has a peaceful year. She's a christian, she believes she'll see her dec'd son and sister soon so at least she has some kind of peace. I told mum "I hope they don't try to mess with that". Mum says that she has refused to consider any kind of alternative treatment and that may or may not be true, maybe Joan is willing to look into a few things but has worked out what mum's quack is about and just isn't going there, so good for her. I told mum the only thing that really matters now is that she gets something for the pain and is able to be calm and comfortable, and hopefully fix things with her sons.
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Stezza
Pain relief and healing rift are the most important things.
I have no idea how to find personal email address on here or anything so if you know how to get my email address or if you or anyone else can explain it to me I would be most grateful!
See you soon
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sass_my_frass
Hi, I've pm'd you with my phone number.