two witness rule

luffy

What exactly is the two witness rule regarding the witnesses stance on child abuse?..am I right in thinking that this means that unless there are two witnesses to the child abuse, witnesses are forbidden to go to the police..surely this cannot be so twisted.

reneeisorym

No .. you can go to the police no matter what.

They will not go to the police for you no matter what though. Many times when there are known cases of child abuse or molestation, they never suggest or go to the police with the problem. They take matters in their own hands.

They will just not DF someone unless there is two witnesses.

luffy

They wouldnt be dfd for that yet would be dfd for marrying someone not "scripturally divorced"..or proven "scripturally divorced" by at least two witnesses??..geeez

fullofdoubtnow

Abuse victims aren't prevented from going to the police, but they aren't encouraged either, just the opposite usually. The elders investigate allegations themselves, but unless the accused confesses, or their are at least two witnesses to the act (as if there would be in a child abuse case), the elders take no action against the accused.

Fatfreek

And, suppose there is semen evidence, skin under the fingernails, etc. Enter DNA, right?

Wrong, DNA cannot serve as the second witness. Not reliable enough, or that is the paraphrased feelings of the WT on the matter.

Fats

Confession

I've made this clarification a few times; here it is again: the elder manual, "Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock" does actually make this allowance...

"If there are two or three witnesses to the same kind of
wrongdoing but each one is witness to a separate incident,
their testimony can be considered.
Such evidence may be used to establish guilt, but it is
preferable to have two witnesses to the same occurrence
of wrongdoing."

I once chaired a committee in which we definitely did use the testimony of two witnesses to separate incidents. The accused was disfellowshipped based on it.

It used to be that the elders strongly discouraged the flock from going to the authorities. When I was an elder they were instructing us to "neither encourage nor discourage" doing so. But, from what I have gathered, they would sometimes DF a person for it--if the committee did not find the accused individual guilty.

luffy

I guess its all crazy as I thought..the two witness argument came about in a discussion/argument with my b/f who has jus been baptised and who is at present unsuccessfully trying to get me to do the same as he insists this is the only way we can marry. The child abuse and two witness rule is just one of the witness stands I find ludicrous. Im divorced and although suspect my ex has messed around have no "proof"..I asked my b/f how on earth there would possibly be two witnesses to either child abuse or adultery..can jus imagine my ex..."hey guys come watch me be unfaithful!!!"..I asked him in the case that there are NO witnesses surely it is up to individual conscience..how on earth can an elder or anybody else "judge" this situation???..either Im nuts or they are and thanks to this forum Im pretty quickly finding out the answer to that one...woud be grateful if anybody knows how the Elders would deal with a situation like mine.

Nathan Natas

The "two witness rule" applies to congregational, or so-called "theocratic" justice.

While a person may seem to be free to go to the secular authorities, we have to bear in mind that if the case is seen as having "insufficient evidence" for judicial committee to establish guilt; i.e., no two witnesses, then the accuser can be disfellowshipped for slandering the good name of the accused.

That is why most Dubs will not go to the secular authorities.

As for what constitutes "acceptable witness," it should be noted that only another member of the congregation - a Dub - is acceptable. Worldly people are not. Think back to ancient Israel's isolationist attitudes toward "the nations."

Luffy, in your own case I think the elders' first concern would be whether you are SCRIPTURALLY free to remarry. If you are not, then your freshly-dipped boyfriend could be disfellowshipped for being in an adulterous relationship after he marries you. It goes without saying that pre-marital "fornication" is out of the question: big no-no.

Frank75

The whole two witnesses thing is a subterfuge for convenience. The Internet is covered with examples of the lunacy of JC's, the Society's loop holes and their ridiculous reasoning's such as this one.

Lot's of people including myself have been DF'd on the mouth of one witness, or two so called witnesses to different events.

My accuser was my mother who I shared 3 or 4 WT killer bible texts with. Even though I did not elaborate other than saying, "it is pretty obvious and clear what so and so was writing/saying here" I was judged only by her version of events. When I asked the 6 men in the joke appeal meeting how they could rationalise judging someone on single witness testimony, since surely they all realized it could be done to them, they just smiled and laughed and said "we are not apostates".

Friends of ours were DF'd simply for asking about the UN fiasco. Lastly my brother was recently df'd because someone saw me at his home. The elders then combed the congregation looking for testimony or willing witnesses against him. One man came forward and said that my brother had claimed the Watchtower was a "false prophet". When he was confronted with that accusation he asked to see his accuser, which was refused him (they actually had the accuser brought to another meeting but after asking 2 preliminary questions and showing that the guy himself was critical of the WT and spreading apostate views, the man was quickly dismissed). All my brother said to this guy was "how would you respond to someone in the service who called us a false prophet?".

So obviously the rules are for convenience. They will kick anyone out that even hints of having their cult spell broken. This plugs the leak and serves to keep everyone else in line. They hide behind the 2 witness rule in cases of rape and pedophilia because they want to look the other way so as to quell the truth about its prevalence.

Frank75

2112

Nathan is correct. When my step son was molested I when to the police the day he told us about it. The abuser wrote a letter to the elders saying "He would never bring reproach to Jehovah's name". And the elders just fell all over him with support (a few monts lates they made him a MS). Anyway the police were going to arrest him. Since I had not adopted the boy, technically my wife had full authority over him. She asked me to handle everything then the elders told her since there was not two witnesses to these events she was forbidden to prosicute. She went around my back and told the police not to arrest him as she was not pressing charges. As I have mentioned before my father is an elder and this abuser was and is a close friend to him. Even after the abuse my father calls this guy "The son he never had". He still has a photo of this guy in his house that you see as you walk in, and my stepson recently told me 14 years later that it hurts him every time he goes to my dads house and sees that photo. But he does not want me to say anything as he doesn't want to cause problems.

A life time of heartache for a sweet kid, it just pisses me off......Sorry

two witness rule

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