I am now a R.V! Help me with questions to ask please (page 2)

awol

sorry... yes, I will do that... I will get the book off my mum if she still has it in the loft!! xxx

they should go over the history themselves - I didn't know ANY I just said exactly what they said to me if asked ... strange isn't it.

nelly136

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses

bit of a jump in start date from adam and eve

hubert

Captives of a Concept", a book (less than $20) by Don Cameron, says that one who is considering a Bible study with Jehovah’s Witnesses should "...ask for a history study first in order to find out if this is in fact the organization that Jesus appointed to teach the Bible to the rest of mankind." He suggests, "... those who do a history study first don’t ask for a Bible Study later."

Don Cameron is on this forum. I will look up the link for his book, and put it in this post. You can download his book from his site, for 5 bucks, and have it almost instantly. I did, and love it.

You can prove with this book that if Russel were alive today and taught what he did in the past, he would be labeled an apostate.

Fatfreek is right, try to get them to do a "History study" first, if you can.

Hubert

reneeisorym

I had a lot of digging around in doctrine to do when I left JWs.

I really feel that bringing up UN and those things will make them feel like you are slandering them and they really won't think. You could have told me all of those things when I was a JW and it wouldn't have made any difference. I even knew lots of the history and thought it didn't matter because at least they had their doctrine right and I was doing what was right even if they weren't directed by Jehovah.

That said, (and I know many will prob disagree with me) doctrine was what got to me. The very first thing that caught my attention and I couldn't let go of it was that 607 b.c. was when Jersalem's distruction happened. It was 587/586 b.c. (see below)

The second thing was this -- make them show you were in revelation that it says that the great crowd is going to be on earth. It says 4 times in different ways that they are going to be in heaven but never says they will be on earth. In heaven (Rev 19:1) before the throne where the 144,000 and angels are also (Rev 7:9, 14:3, 7:11; and in God's Temple -- naos "devine dwelling" according to the Insight book (Rev 11:9). Then it also says that anyone written in the book of life can go in God's Temple Also worth mentioning is that Jesus said that the "other sheep" (who if you remember are the great crowd) and he said he would make the two folds into ONE flock .. not one flock into two folds. I wish I had my quotes from the WatchTower about the temple thing. I found a part where they flat out lied in some old stuff. ... still see below for the date thing.

Historians put this date at 587 BCE. Why? The Bible reports that the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in his 18th regnal year. VAT 4956 is a cuneiform tablet that provides astronomical information datable to 568 B.C.E. It says that the observations were from Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year. This would correspond to the chronology that places his 18th regnal year in 587/6 B.C.E. I do not know if you are aware but VAT 4956 is not the only cuneiform astronomical tablet that historians use to date the Babylonian king's reigns. The astronomical tablets are reliable as their observances can not be duplicated for some time, sometimes even thousands of years. The tablet has 30 astronomical observances that are so accurately described that modern astronomers have no trouble dating it to 568 BCE, which the tablet in two places states is Nebuchadnezzars 37th year. The observances are of the moon and the five then known planets. Modern astronomers point out that such combinations of astronomical positions would not be duplicated again in thousands of years. There is no way that the observances can have been made 20 years earlier. But this is not the only tablet evidence that historians use to date the period. There is exhaustive evidence to prove that it was 587 BCE but I will stop here. Interestingly also: The WatchTower Society originally said that the fall of Jerusalem happened in 606 BCE. Then when they realized that they had made an error and considering that there is no zero year -- that date would bring them to 1913. Instead of changing it to 1913 they decided Jerusalem must have fallen in 607 BCE!!

hubert

Here's the link for Don Camerons site and "Captives of a Concept".

http://www.captivesofaconcept.com/

Hubert

nelly136

i agree with renee about the UN thing, but more because if you're just an ordinary interested person asking questions it probably wouldnt be something you'd know about or understand why it would be a problem.

2112

They told you that they have studied other religions before becoming JW's and that they study other religions as JW's. I would press them on this point. Ask each one individually - which churches they attended, how long did they attend each one, why did they not believe the religions teachings, If they do tell you any, and then try and tell you the "bad points", you can say, "I was talking to an ex-jw and they said some bad things about your religion." They will probably say something like people that leave have an ax to grind and can't be trusted. (If they don't just attack the unknown person personaly). Well then you can ask them if the other religion can say that they have an ax to grind since they left.

Another totally honest point is, IF they mention apostates and they left another religion you can point out they are by deffinition apostates.

If they tell you they can not name one then ask why they lied to you. Now it gets fun, when they say they study other religions in their meetings simply ask is there one religion besides JW's that you could be a member of and have Gods aproval? Why not? Then ask if any other religion would say that being a member of JW's would have Gods approval? When they start crying about being hated blah, blah, blah... you can nicely mention that most other religions don't even know who JWs are let alone hate them, after all "you don't know that much about them, as far as they know. And if they were as well knon and feared by all other religions then why would they knock on doors to find people to accept their message if they are already hated.

Sorry this is so long but this would be a good way to see how honest they have been with you and will be with you. If they stick around, then insist on that history lesson, it just may help them.

Fatfreek

It all may be as simple (you want to keep it simple) as the difference between two words and their opposite meanings, objective and subjective.

Objective: undistorted by emotion or personal bias; based on observable phenomena; "an objective appraisal"; "objective evidence"

Subjective: as opposed to objective, full of personal emotions and feelings.

Knowing this, you may choose to stay away from subjective things, things subject to interpretation. e.g. Bible scriptures, Bible history such as the topic of 607, any fulfillment of prophecy (or not). By staying away from these you are keeping off their favorite turf. They are experts in interpretation, they love to spin.

Objective things are like box scores of sporting events, things that cannot be argued. "The Cowboys won yesterday" (true), "President Kennedy was assassinated" (true).

"...1925 shall mark the resurrection of the faithful worthies of old...". Millions, p.97. (a statement of prediction)

"Certainly they have not returned. No one has seen them, and it would
be foolish to make such an announcement. It was stated in the 'Millions' book that we might reasonably expect them to return shortly after 1925, but this was merely an expressed opinion; besides it is still shortly after 1925..." WT 1926, p.196. ("merely an expressed opinion" is an obvious lie)

Fats

awol

I have ordered the book and so should get time to read up before next week! lol.

I have ordered crisis of concience too for my mum (and I will read too) for XMAS!!!

It is quiet hard to NOT use phrases and buzz words they know.... and not to let on I know about the religion at all! I have to watch everything I say!....

thank you all for your help, it's good to have some back up here - u are all so helpful. xx

nelly136

this is from an old news paper clipping i was reading the other day

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/136796_jehovah27.html

That is what propelled Brown and Schwerdtfeger to meander through Renton in a gray minivan recently, searching for people who were alone. They spend 70 hours a month preaching, and have become adept at reading human dynamics and body language. People who are alone and aren't too busy are the most receptive. People in groups are the least.

Brown, who is 46 and was raised a Jehovah's Witness, spied a young man waiting for a bus on Sunset Boulevard Northeast. She parked, threaded her way down a cracked, weedy sidewalk in her nice pumps, and yelled over the roar of traffic. He didn't want any pamphlets, but took a Bible tract.

"Oh, good! A thought for the day!" he yelled back, voice slightly off-kilter. "I'm going to kill you! Ha ha ha ha!"

Brown's face froze into a stiff mask. "Well," she said. "That's not a good thought."

i think the reporter must have been quite observant to pick up on that stiff mask thing, it is quite ok for jws to promote genocide of billions but he hit her nerve when he read it back that way,

if you watch a jws face when you talk to them you can tell by their expression when you've hit a nerve cos their faces do go stiff, i used to trigger it in my mum and other jws i had ocassion to talk to and it works everytime.

i used to do it on purpose but then i'm just warped

but if you want to avoid setting them on edge and dropping their shutters its a good sign to watch for when youre getting too warm.

I am now a R.V! Help me with questions to ask please

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