How do you explain Altruism?

by nicolaou 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jgnat
    jgnat
    zagor: One thing you might be overlooking is that for any organism that is a part of a larger community to survive it must work in interest of the community to increase likelihood of survival.

    Yes, altruism may be hard-wired in to our genetics and evolution. After all, what's the use of individual survival if the species expires? I suspect our increasing connectedness and our global awareness is making humanity MORE altruistic. We've seen earth from space. We now have an idea that it is unique and fragile. Hence, the modern child's obsession with recycling and protecting the earth as a whole.

    One of my lifetime quotes is from Simone Weil, an altruist. She pointed out that even those who are natural martyrs may do so out of selfish motive. (They are in love with the lifestyle that demands self-sacrifice). I've learned her philosophy ultimately killed her.

    Those who serve a cause are not those who love that cause. They are those who love the life which has to be led in order to serve it, except in the case of the very purest, and they are rare.Simone Weil
  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    True altruism is only possible in very limited circumstances; a person walking through a part of town he doesn't know throwing themselves in front of a car to push a child they do not know and are not related to to safety and then being struck by the car and instantly killed, all in such a short period of time it is a reflex and no real concious thought about it takes place is arguably altruistic.

    Maybe this guy didn't have time to feel good about saving his friends, maybe he did; either way he's a hero;

    http://iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/13/america/NA_GEN_US_Iraq_Navy_SEAL_Killed.php

    (So much for someone throwing themselves on a grenade to save their comrades never happening)

    There is no 'pay-off' in terms of gene transferance as there is (for example) in social insects dying to protect another insects offspring.

    However, as we are thinking creatures, most actions are non-altruistic as we get the benefit of feeling good about doing what we perceive as good. That is enough to make it non-altrusitic.

    WHY we perceive such actions as good even if they are disadvantagous to ourselves is another question. My own thoughts are that comunities where people had these characteristics (even if only by means of an extended phenotype, i.e. a culturally transmitted way of acting) faired better than those where it was 'every man for themselves', as the 'penalty' for altruism was normally offset by the benefits, in in 'every man for themselves' societies there were no such beenfits.

    Examples exist elsewhere in nature; Wolves and Cape Hunting Dogs feed nursing mothers and young they are not related too, the sick too. As already noted, Vampire bats who fail to feed for three days die; they remember the bats who feed them when they are in need and feed them in turn.

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    Altruism (or apparent altruism) is found in all human societies and among many animal species. For it to be so ubiquitous, it must confer a survival advantage. But how can sacrificing one's own welfare for someone else's be advantageous from an evolutionary point of view?But why are we nice to people who aren't related to us? The short answer is so that they will be nice back. That sounds calculating

    Well, there are a number of answers to that. The most obvious recipients of our altruism tend to be our immediate families, especially our children. Sacrificing oneself for one's children is a good thing from an evolutionary point of view, as it ensures the continued existence of the genes - including genes "for" going to great lengths to protect the welfare of one's children. Organisms without this tendency leave fewer descendants. This also explains the behaviour of social insects such as bees and ants where sterile individuals will work and even sacrifice their lives for the good of their community - which happens to be filled with individuals with very similar genomes.

    and self-serving and against the spirit of "true" altruism, but it's not really. We follow the Golden Rule of treating others as we would like to be treated in the hope that they will treat us in the same way. And when people consistently don't treat us in the same way, all but the most charitable of us will stop helping them. In communities where everybody knows everybody else (like those all humans lived in for most of our history), the value of reputation is enormous. Selfishness may pay in the short term but in the long term no society will tolerate a relentless sponger. We carry over these inborn traits even though most of us now live in cities where we are mostly anonymous and could get away with being a lot less nice than we are.

    For those interested in more detail, supporting evidence and a superior writing style I recommend reading the definitive work on this subject: Richard Dawkins' The Selfish Gene which, despite its title, is more about altruism than selfishness.

    Dawkins was also on Melvyn Bragg's Radio 4 programme yesterday discussing this very topic. It should be on the BBC website somewhere.

  • Confession
    Confession

    I'm not certain that Eduardo's understanding of the posted question is that which was intended. I don't think Nicolaou was discussing altruism in only the biological sense. It seems his question itself was asking whether it was biological or not. From Wikipedia...

    Altruism is unselfish concern for the welfare of others. It is a traditional virtue in many cultures, and central to many religious traditions. Altruism can be distinguished from a feeling of loyalty and duty. Altruism focuses on a motivation to help others or a want to do good without reward, while duty focuses on a moral obligation towards a specific individual (for example, a God, a king), a specific organization (for example, a government), or an abstract concept (for example, country etc). Some individuals may feel both altruism and duty, while others may not. Pure altruism is giving without regard to reward or the benefits of recognition.

    I've given thought to this subject before. Before having done so, I'd have described myself as altruistic. But if true altruism means "giving without regard to reward or the benefits of recognition," I'm probably not. My reasons for wanting to help others, to giving of myself are because (1) I like how it feels to do so in the moment and, honestly, (2) I like it that others may respect, appreciate and/or love me for doing so. It's true that I have performed unnecessarily kind acts that no one has ever found out about, but I can confess to an almost romantic desire that someone would find out. I would also point out that this "desire" lessens the older I get, yet the instinct I feel to keep giving freely continues. (Auto pilot? Biology?)

    Zagor: Many people are in fact not altruistic at all precisely because of not seeing any benefit to themselves. Other on the other hand chose to use those innate abilities to go step further in human evolution and be there for their fellow man.

    I've made mention before of my interest in "typewatching," an extension of Myers-Briggs temperament studies. I know that over the years refinements have been made to this field, but some basic elements remain: (1)concrete vs. abstract thinking & communicating, and (2) cooperation vs. utilitarianism. In this discussion I'm focusing on the latter. It's true that there is a sliding scale for each of these elements. Some are extremely cooperative, while others show more of a balance, but it's very rare to find someone who does not demonstrate a definite preference for one over the other. A person is either a utilitarian (they do what gets results, what achieves their objectives as effectively or efficiently as possible,) or a cooperator (they try to do the right thing, in keeping with agreed upon social rules, conventions, and codes of conduct.)

    Aren't both qualities (therefore both types of people) needed in order for a group to survive and flourish? Some roles in a family, organization or society require cooperators to make sure duties are carried out and provisions are made, while other roles require utilitarians to make sure those provisions are still coming in and the group is protected, for example. Militaries utilize both cooperative (logistical and diplomatic) as well as utilitarian (strategic and tactical) people.

    So if people are every day born with these two qualities, and if they are both needed to survive and flourish, isn't it possible that it is biological--that nature produces both types of people?

  • Confession
    Confession

    Funny. Just found this article on watchtower.org...

  • compound complex
    compound complex

    Dear Reciprocating and Kind-Hearted Altruists,

    I need time to study all your well-thought-out comments before venturing into the nether regions; however, one scriptural example that rushed to mind was that of the Maltese who exhibited "extraordinary human kindness" to Paul and his fellow shipwreckees. Certainly, there is commentary on this. I don't know if such a straight-forward example of beneficent action would engender philosophical debate. The Maltese Syndrome is permanently lodged in my heart and mind because of those whom I identify as altruists. This is purely anecdotal and subjective, I realize, but I feel it is genuine. It works for me.

    Humbly, a wannabe altruist,

    Compound-Complex

  • Scully
    Scully

    Funky Derek:

    Here's a link to the audio of the Dawkins interview: In Our Time

  • BizzyBee
    BizzyBee
    altruism isn't truly selfless anyway. it is only the recognition that the benefit to others is in some way beneficial to the self even if intangibly so...

    I have to agree with Eduardo on this one.

    I've had this discussion with someone who claims to want to help other people simply because 'they need help and they don't have anyone else.' I've said, 'then your real motivation is that it would be more uncomfortable for you not to help them than to help them. Or, that you like the feeling of being the kind of person that helps other people.' Nope - she wasn't having it that there was any possible benefit to her - it had to be pure altruism. Psych 101 - take it.

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