The "Used of God" (page 2)

PrimateDave

Thank you Perry for your explanation. Interesting analogy with the Hollywood movies. Epics like the "Lord of the Rings" and "Star Wars" certainly fit the bill as well when it comes to the Good versus Evil theme. I think it gives people some kind of comfort to see Good triumph over Evil in fiction since real life is quite often not so comforting.

In fact in real life the labels of Good and Evil are quite subjective depending on one's point of view. What is the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter? Answer: the side you are on.

Another question - what government in the world is the biggest promoter of terrorism in modern history? Reader's of Noam Chomsky's work know that answer: the United States of America.

Ironically, I grew up being taught that my country (the U.S. of A.) was the land of the free, home of the brave, and the biggest promoter of democracy and freedom in the world.

Which of these two viewpoints is true? Both. Reality isn't cut and dry simple.

Interestingly, I have noticed from my reading of the Bible that "God" is quite capable of evil thoughts and actions. And who is to say that "Satan" isn't just a victim of bad press?

In fact, holding Biblical characters up to modern moral standards is amusing. Take the "righteous" man Lot for instance. He committed incest with his daughters. Imagine him in a modern courtroom. "I was drunk at the time, your Honor." "Fine, you can get counseling while you serve your sentence." LOL!

I'm sorry, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Perry.

Dave

Perry

Hi Nark,

I knew I should have re-worded that sentence as soon as I posted it to make it consistent. If anyone would catch that... you would. Quite the smarty pants you are ... in a good way.

You wrote:

Why inevitable? Who made it inevitable? Did God make it inevitable or did he have to deal with some exterior (if not superior) reality?

My best friend for many years was an athiest and we had quite a few conversation over beers at the local pub when we should have been paying attention to the ladies since we were both single the time. Anyway, my friend was quite the logical type as well as a wicked chess player. The conversations always ended with him assuring me that if there was a hell I was definitely going there and that he would follow me into its depths if for no other reason than out of a sense of morbid curiosity. Because of his unusual brightness, it was always surprising to me that he would not explain to me what a world or existence might look like where the possibility of evil didn't exist. I would notice a slight change in his demeanor when the conversation inevitable got down to that. I suppose that was also about the time he reminded me that I was going to hell anyway. LOL

It was almost like when he thought about the concept of God at all, he accused him. Since this attitude was really out of character for him it was almost like he was predestined to be an accuser of God.

So, I'll ask you the same question. What might a world look like where the possibility of evil did not exist? Or, are you suggesting that such a world is not necessary for the absence of the indulgence of evil by intelligent creatures; and if so, by what agency is this achieved?

To lil 'ole 9th grade educated me, it seems a given that if evil is possible, someone is gonna give it a whirl at some point, hence its inevitability.

SixofNine

I know we've bantered about this before Perry, but I'm not sure I understand exactly how you define "evil".

Perry

Hey Six,

That is a problematic area since the terms mean different things to believers and non believers. Nevertheless, it could mean to an unbeliever the violating of his or her's own ethical standards whether knowingly or not. Seen this way, God's ultimate purpose is to make it possible for you to never violate one of your own personal rules of character, unending life not withstanding.

Woodsman

When God required 7 human sacrifices in order to lift the famine from the land in 2 Samuel 21, was this Satanic Evil, Godly Evil or not Evil at all?

SixofNine

"Nevertheless, it could mean to an unbeliever the violating of his or her's own ethical standards whether knowingly or not."

That's pretty far outside any accepted definition of "evil" imo. Since this topic starts out from your viewpoint, what is your definition of "evil" and do you think it conforms to the definition of most "believers" ("believers" in Christ, for the sake of brevity)?

Perry

Six,

It's not so easy, that's for sure. This scripture comes to mind:

Rom 7:19: For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.

One might say that the disparity between what a mans knows to be right and and what he does is evil. He may try to resolve this problem (indeed without God he must in order to justify his continued existence) by declaring all things for himself good. By racing to the lowest common denominator he glorifies depravity and social anarchy..... unless of course you can describe to me a type of justifiable world where moral standards do not exist.

If on the other hand a man proclaims that some standards are ok, then he must admit that he could conceive a situation when he would violate those standards for a better good. If this is true, then the accusation against God is frivilous since the man judges God by a standard that he himself is not willing to bear. In order to remain logical, the athiest must then destroy himself in order to eliminate the possibility of accountability... which of course is absurd. How do you resolve this problem?

Let's try a triangulation method to try and pin down what evil is:

The Butter Knife and the Better Knife

A few weeks ago at church I had the great privledge and prestigous honor of watching over a group of 4 and 5 year olds for two hours. During this truly glorifying experience, we were involved in a craft that required the cutting of play-doh into sections. The children were given among other things a paper plate and a plastic butter knife to cut their play-doh alotments. I, being the Grand Master of the activity located a kitchen knife and proceeded to cut the large portion into smaller sections so as to distribute.

During this activity a cute little Asian child wanted the kitchen knife since he could easily see that it was better. When I eventually strongly denied his request, he made the ugliest face I have ever seen and discharged a reservoir of anger that was truly remarkable. For only a moment I imagined him becoming violent, perhaps with martial arts directed at me to resolve his dilemma, but he didn't. Instead his anger gave way to tears streaming down his face. I then realized that he took it personal, it wasn't about the knife at all. In his view, I was assaulting him by my apparent duplicity. How could I both approve and deny the better knife at the same time? That which I declared wrong, I used. I was saying that it was both good and bad. To him, I was acting evil.

From my perspective, the child was acting evil since all the other children weren't concerned with this moral dilemma and were making their crafts quite nicely. They were ok using the butter knife entrusted to them and were not concerned with my better knife. There was peace, unity, progress, development, and community. All this was halted for the angry child.

I later related this story to a church member, a psychologist who took a third position by essentially positing the evil, not in the child as I did, nor in me as the child did, but in the parents who did not love the child enough at home. She surmised that he probably wasn't getting enough attention and was trying to form a maladaptive relationship with things instead of with people. In her view, the evil was outside the child and it twisted him into an image of itself.

Somewhere inbetween these three positions is the definition of evil.

Sad emo

At some point in Satan's battle and theivery against God he will understand that he was simply a useful instrument to God and that he was predestined to provide the setting (rebellion) in which God's grace could be fully exercised through election - adoption.

Fast forward to the judgement day:

God "Ok I'm done with you now, go away to the place of eternal torment I always had planned for you"

Satan "Thank you for preparing a special place just for me and my mates. I'd just like to say how honoured we felt to be a useful part of your eternal plan to save everyone else."

Perry, I'm throwing a spanner in the works here - if Satan was simply doing God's will (He predestined him to do evil) then why isn't he going to go to Heaven? Does he not love Satan as much as the rest of creation?

Also, if God predestined everyone, why bother with this life at all, why didn't he cut the crap and put everyone where he wants them?

emo of the devil's advocate class

Perry

I thank everyone for their useful input. I'm leaving for my last show of the year today. I'll pick this up again next week.

Peace to all.

SixofNine

Have a safe trip, Perry. (I'll give you a call today)

The "Used of God"

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