questions for my elders

by sleepy 22 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AlanF

  To ballisitic:

  Don't feel too bad about having been royally taken in. That's not a result of being a dumb sucker, but of how effective JW methods of recruiting can be, especially on children or on people who are in a fragile emotional state. At least you've realized what happened and have taken steps to set your life in better order.

  To sleepy:

  As Moxy pointed out, your questions are good, but most JWs can blow many of them off with stock answers. You need to sharpen many of the points by asking much harder and more specific questions. How far do you want to go with this?

  Let me give you an example by playing devil's advocate and giving you responses that a typical but knowledgeable JW would give on just one topic:

  : 1. GENTILE TIMES.
  : a. why do we believe in such a thing as the gentile times? this arises as it is not specifically mentioned in the bible as described by Jehovah's witnesses.

  The "Gentile times" is just another name for "the appointed times of the nations" (Luke 21:24; KJV, NWT) and is certainly mentioned in the Bible. Under the direction of Jehovah's "faithful and discreet slave" we know that this refers to the period from 607 B.C.E. to 1914 C.E. This is all clearly explained in our publications.

  : b. why do we calculate that they start with the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 b.c.e.? historians place the event in 587 b.c.e. the 607 date is not mentioned in the bible either.

  We go by what the Bible says, not secular historians. The Bible says that Jerusalem would be desolate for 70 years. We know from secular history that Jerusalem was repopulated in 537 B.C.E. and so, going back 70 years, it must have been desolated in 607 B.C.E. At that time, the "crown was removed" from the typical ruler of God's earthly kingdom and the rule of the Gentiles began.

  : c. why is the duration calculated the way it is? It involves such thing as a prophetic year of these years relate to the modern western calendar of 365 1/4 days.

  This is all explained in our publications. Jehovah, through his "faithful slave", has revealed the interpretation of his scriptures. Obviously the "seven times" mentioned in Daniel are prophetic. The Bible clearly shows that a "time" is a prophetic year. A prophetic year is not literal, and Revelation shows that it is comprised of 360 days because 3 1/2 such prophetic years are equated with 1260 days.

  AlanF -- who has only rejoined the JWs for purposes of this post
• 

  dungbeetle

  I totatlly agree with msil on this one.

  1) Jesus specifically stated: "Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw your pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under your feet and turn around and rip you open."-- Matthew 7:6

  2) When the elders come, tell them: "I'm tired, and depressed, I don't know what to do, the world is so bad, and on and on and on. The elders will pray with you, encourage you to attend more meetings etc. etc. and go away and hopefully leave you alone for a while. After they leave, screen your calls, don't open the door for just anyone, and actually the best thing to do is move with no forwarding address. In five years they are supposed to throw away your publisher card. You will be free. Think how many people who will talk to in that time.

  3) The amount of time spent 'discussing' these issues with diehard JW's (who then will likely turn you in to elders)could be spent talking with 10 other non-JW's who CARE about what you are saying, listen to you, and then will have hard questions for the JW that comes to their door. (JW's have been known to listen to householders, believe it or not!) You have just saved ten people from ever becoming Jehovah's Witnesses and experiencing all that pain and damage as opposed to talking with JW's that you cannot or will not change.

  I hope you will never experience the pain and anguish of Disfellowshipping and Shunning. I have, and others on this board can tell you how difficult it is. My advice is to avoid it at all costs, if possible. PLEASE read the section of Ray Franz's book about his experiences with disfellowshipping and shunning, and ask yourself if this is the ONLY WAY to accomplish what you want.

  And if it is, all my prayers go with you. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best. Believe me, many of us have been where you are.

  Just my 1/2 cent worth

  dungbeetle... STILL cleaning up the crap.
• 

  HoChiMin

  Sleepy,

  Your questions make lot of sense. May I add just one?

  How do the diaper laden old men, the gb, prove they are any more inspired of god than a pile of fresh laid dog shit ?

  HCM
• 

  radar

  Sleepy

  .......................................................................Here are some questions I have prepeared for my elders
  if and when they deside to visit me.
  ..................................................................
  Do not call them your elders!
  They are just brainwashed men, and will not be interested in your questions,except to find an accusation against you.
  So if you do not want to become notorious, then best to keep quite.

  Radar
• 

  MrMoe

  One of the best posts I have ever read - excellent!

  Points that are a big deal to me and changed my lifelong beliefs:

  1. Last chapter of Revelation where Jesus calls himself the Alpha and Omega and that he sent his angel. They say Jesus was talking then Jehovah started talking - but if you look at the quotation marks the second paragraph is marked in the bible as a continuation of the previous paragraph - hence forth it IS Jesus talking and not Jehovah.

  2. The whole 1975 thing. Pull out the October 1998 Awake bound volume - my father confirmed this. 1975 was promoted in other places as well and we all know what the bible says about setting false dates - to not be afraid of those who teach them.

  3. The generation that saw 1914 - I was told I never would grow old. I am going to row old and I am going to die. What a mind job.

  NOTE - when going into the meeting to get your points across - act like you need clarification and you are not arguing or they will CUT YOU OFF. Play dumb. If they threaten apostasy use what I used on my dad - in the bible Jesus commands that we test our faith and anything taught by man. That shut my dad up right away when he said I sounded apostate. I clarified I was not testing God - just doctrines.
• 

  bluesapphire

  "Maximus let the cat out of the bag a month ago"

  Hawk, please explain this statement. Did I miss something? Being a mom of three little girls is rough and sometimes I miss posts for days at a time.
• 

  Satanus

  sleepy

  Asking those poor defenseless elders those questions is like pulling their pants down in public. Sure, their faces will turn red and they will huff, puff, and beat their chests. Better bring ear plugs. Remember to insist on bringing a 'nuetral' observer, like a lawyer or an apostate when the big meeting comes.

  S
• 

  Pathofthorns

  The points you have mentioned are very good. It is nice to have them clearly laid out like that. Hawkaw's comments as well are excellent.

  Unfortunately if you think elders are willing to discuss and debate these things with you and allow you to question THEM and bring in OUTSIDE information to support your comments, I think you are mistaken.

  Your points are good for private discussions with friends you can trust. You cannot simply present these things logically in an hour and expect them to abandon everything they believe in. It generally takes months and months of private discussion for people to make some definite progress.

  Elders in a group will rarely agree with you. Privately, you might discuss some 'concerns' with a SINGLE elder, and this will allow him possibly to be more honest. It will also deny them having 2 witnesses to anything you say.

  Meetings with elders are a farce anyway. IMO it is a waste of time and nothing good comes out of them. You might as well throw your rights out the window because they have an agenda and it doesn't include debating with you. It is much like when we went in field service. You only pretended to be interested in what they had to say.

  Anyway, good luck.

  Path
• 

  beroea

  Don’t even think about asking those questions even they are good. If you do you will face serious problems and probably face a DF. Those questions are simple not to ask open. Think what you want but don’t speak open.

  That is of course if you what to stay and don’t want do risk a DF. If you want freedom to choose you own way and keep some kind of contact maybe with good friends or family then just think - don’t ask.

  Just some good advice from an insider

  Kind regards
  Beroea
• 

  SammyJoUK

  Can I print and use these sleepy?
  Want to send them to a JW I am witnessing too?

  Hugz

  Sammy