I had made up my mind that I would no longer engage in any form of debate or discussion concerning the Trinity Doctrine but my pentacostal granduncle was itching for a Trinity debate. So we debated for 4 hours. Most of his arguments were "circular reasoning" because he kept showing me scriptures where a "title" was applied to Jehovah and also applied to Jesus Christ. So he said this was proof positive that Jesus is Jehovah. Titles such as Savior, God, Shepherd, True God, Lord of Lords, First and Last, Alpha and Omega, etc; I told my uncle that if we use this as absolute proof that if a title is applied to 2 people they must be the same then we will have serious problems. Both Moses and Jehovah are called "Savior" both Moses and Jehovah are called "God". Jehovah God himself calls Moses god. So is Moses now apart of the Trinity? And if trinitarians argue that Moses was not a true god then they must say he is a "false god". So 1/4 of the old testaments was written by a "false god". Nebechadnezzar and Jesus Christ are both called "King of Kings". My uncle tried to explain it away by saying that Nebechadnezzar was only king of kings in the old testament, but Jesus is now the king of kings. I showed my uncle a verse that totally blew him away and he even admitted he could not answer it. I showed him Judges 16:18-20 where in verse 18 the bible says Samson's strength "departed" from him, then if you keep reading in verse 20 it says Jehovah "departed" from Samson. I asked my uncle was Samson and Jehovah the same person because it says Samson's strength "departed" from him but 2 verses down it says Jehovah "departed" from Samson. In Revelations Jesus says he is going to command his disciples "enemies" to "worship" at their feet. So Jesus disciples are going to receive "worship" and Jesus is the one commanding it so do trinitarians want to say Jesus' disciples are God because they are going to receive "worship" or is Jesus guilty of promoting "creature worship". The list goes on and on on how absurd the Trinity is when you pick it apart. My uncle stop talking and hung up the phone when he was stumped for answers. Trinitarians just don't intimidate me anymore like they used to before I really examined the Trinity doctrine.
Why do "Trinitarians" still insist on arguing Jesus is Jehovah if a title?
by booker-t 4 Replies latest jw friends
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Narkissos
Lol. Who's itching now?
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Amazing
Booker-T,
Your best statemnent is that the discussion was mostly circular reasoning. Most non-trinitarians and most trinitarians do not understand the history or teaching, yet they are the ones who find the doctrine necessary to debate. The besic problem that both have is that they fail to understand the difference between the economic vs ontological trinity. Most do not even understand the terms. The best definition I ever heard of the Trinity goes like this:
Just as there is one humanity, with billions of members, each fully human, there there is still only one humanity, likewise, there is one Divinity with one three members, each fully Divine, but there is still only one Divinity. Humanity and Divinity are a class ... humanity is interechangeable with human, and divinity is interchangeable with the term God.
Understood from th is perspective, the Trinity makes more sense to the novice debater of the topic. Like you, I do not like the discussions and debates, because they end up right back where they started, only with a lot of extra unneeded emitions spilling all over the ground. I can say that the Watchtower lied about the Trinity, the entire doctrine and its history. In saying that, I believe that anyone remaining Christian after being a JW, needs to reconsider the doctrine in a more objective setting, with good documents and better yet, instruction from someone who knows what in the hell they are talking about.
Jim Whitney
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Narkissos
Just as there is one humanity, with billions of members, each fully human, there there is still only one humanity, likewise, there is one Divinity with one three members, each fully Divine, but there is still only one Divinity. Humanity and Divinity are a class ... humanity is interechangeable with human, and divinity is interchangeable with the term God.
Understood from th is perspective, the Trinity makes more sense to the novice debater of the topic. Like you, I do not like the discussions and debates, because they end up right back where they started, only with a lot of extra unneeded emitions spilling all over the ground. I can say that the Watchtower lied about the Trinity, the entire doctrine and its history. In saying that, I believe that anyone remaining Christian after being a JW, needs to reconsider the doctrine in a more objective setting, with good documents and better yet, instruction from someone who knows what in the hell they are talking about.
Like, asking real Catholic theologians what they think about the above analogy? I'd be surprised if the word polytheism (or perhaps tritheism) isn't part of the answer...
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Amazing
Nark,
Like, asking real Catholic theologians what they think about the above analogy? I'd be surprised if the word polytheism (or perhaps tritheism) isn't part of the answer...
There is no more "tri-theism" involved in the definition I provided than there is in "multi-humanity-ism." There is only one humanity, but many members. There is only one Divinity with three members. I was raised Catholic, taught by Catholic theologians from the Dominicans and Franciscans. I am Catholic once again, and find no conflict in the definition. The Trinity is a human convention used to try and explain a mystery in scripture. It is Arian groups like the Watchtower that have made a big issue of what is otherwise an academic teaching.
Jim Whitney