Hello, my coworker of 2 years is an active JW foot soldier. Me, never a JW, just a lurker on this site for 2 years. I have thrown much at this guy but he allways comes back with something. Well I decided to try again an photo copied the Revelation "Climax" Book page which contained the explanation to this scripture. Of course he did not know the word was naos for temple. He then asked what is the word for sanctuary. Oh no its Naos. Of course my follow up question was "what does this have to do with the outer court? and the Great Crowd is Where?" I guess i have a bit of chip on my shoulder since he has used his "So what is your hope? Heaven?" on me and my coworker. I am confused about their current position and would like some information so I can be prepared for his watchtower mind and word tricks. Also this site is great, you apostates ROCK.
Outer court? What in the world are you talking about? revelation 7:15
by icocer 9 Replies latest watchtower bible
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icocer
There is a 2002 watchtower that mentions their new position does anyone have this?
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Narkissos
Welcome icocer,
I suppose you are thinking of the Watchtower 5/1 2002, p. 30-31 (Question from readers):
When
Johnsawthe"greatcrowd"renderingsacredserviceinJehovah’stemple,inwhichpartofthetempleweretheydoingthis?—Revelation7:9-15.It is reasonable to say that the great crowd worships Jehovah in one of the earthly courtyards of his great spiritual temple, specifically the one that corresponds with the outer courtyard of Solomon’s temple.
In times past, it has been said that the great crowd is in a spiritual equivalent, or an antitype, of the Court of the Gentiles that existed in Jesus’ day. However, further research has revealed at least five reasons why that is not so. First, not all features of Herod’s temple have an antitype in Jehovah’s great spiritual temple. For example, Herod’s temple had a Court of the Women and a Court of Israel. Both men and women could enter the Court of the Women, but only men were allowed into the Court of Israel. In the earthly courtyards of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, men and women are not separated in their worship. (Galatians 3:28, 29) Hence, there is no equivalent of the Court of the Women and the Court of Israel in the spiritual temple.
Second, there was no Court of the Gentiles in the divinely provided architectural plans of Solomon’s temple or Ezekiel’s visionary temple; nor was there one in the temple rebuilt by Zerubbabel. Hence, there is no reason to suggest that a Court of the Gentiles needs to play a part in Jehovah’s great spiritual temple arrangement for worship, especially when the following point is considered.
Third, the Court of the Gentiles was built by the Edomite King Herod to glorify himself and to curry favor with Rome. Herod set about renovating Zerubbabel’s temple perhaps in 18 or 17 B.C.E. TheAnchorBibleDictionary explains: "The classical tastes of the imperial power to the West [Rome] . . . mandated a temple larger than those of comparable eastern cities." However, the dimensions of the temple proper were already established. The dictionary explains: "While the Temple itself would have to have the same dimensions as its predecessors [Solomon’s and Zerubbabel’s], the Temple Mount was not restricted in its potential size." Hence, Herod expanded the temple area by adding on what in modern times has been called the Court of the Gentiles. Why would a construction with such a background have an antitype in Jehovah’s spiritual temple arrangement?
Fourth, almost anyone—the blind, the lame, and uncircumcised Gentiles—could enter the Court of the Gentiles. (Matthew 21:14, 15) True, the court served a purpose for many uncircumcised Gentiles who wished to make offerings to God. And it was there that Jesus sometimes addressed the crowds and twice expelled the money changers and merchants, saying that they had dishonored the house of his Father. (Matthew 21:12, 13; John 2:14-16) Still, TheJewishEncyclopedia says: "This outer court was, strictly speaking, not a part of the Temple. Its soil was not sacred, and it might be entered by any one."
Fifth, the Greek word (hi·e·ron’) translated "temple" that is used with reference to the Court of the Gentiles "refers to the entire complex, rather than specifically to the Temple building itself," says AHandbookontheGospelofMatthew, by Barclay M. Newman and Philip C. Stine. In contrast, the Greek word (na·os’) translated "temple" in John’s vision of the great crowd is more specific. In the context of the Jerusalem temple, it usually refers to the Holy of Holies, the temple building, or the temple precincts. It is sometimes rendered "sanctuary."—Matthew 27:5, 51; Luke 1:9, 21; John 2:20.
Members of the great crowd exercise faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. They are spiritually clean, having "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Hence, they are declared righteous with a view to becoming friends of God and of surviving the great tribulation. (James 2:23, 25) In many ways, they are like proselytes in Israel who submitted to the Law covenant and worshiped along with the Israelites.
Of course, those proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard, where the priests performed their duties. And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah’s "holy priesthood" while they are on earth. (1 Peter 2:5) But as the heavenly elder said to John, the great crowd really is in the temple, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles. What a privilege that is! And how it highlights the need for each one to maintain spiritual and moral purity at all times!
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A Paduan
I have thrown much at this guy but he allways comes back with something.
Have you tried this ?
-- For many many many years the wts emphatically proclaimed that "the generation of 1914" would not pass away - and then changed their prophecy - that is, once the description was passing the used by date, and before the said generation had near all died - plainly this fits the description of a false prophet - and it's not the only false prophecy -They Are A False Prophet
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icocer
Thanks Narkissos and Paduan for responding, I've read much of your post and respect you guys a ton.
I've read this article several times now and I am confused by the logic behind it. What is it that I am missing?
Revelation 7:15 "... and serve him day and night in his Temple (naos)"
Hasn't the watchtower contradicted the scripture on their last paragraph stating that " the great crowd are not in the inner court yard of Jehovah's great spirtual temple.." , when two paragraphs before they states that (naos) "In the context of the Jerusalem temple, it usually refers to the Holy of Holies, the the temple building, or the temple precincts. It is sometimes rendered "sanctuary""?
Also is it fair (or should I say it is reasonable) to bring in Rev 11:19. "and the Temple (naos) of God wich is in heaven was opened" into the discussion?
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Narkissos
Not strictly self-contradictory as they (arbitrarily) retain the broadest definition of naos, i.e. the whole "temple precincts" including the courtyards. The only "new light" of that article is that it limits this broad definition to the "scriptural" temple maps instead of applying it to the (still larger) Herodian temple as they used to do. So "it is reasonable to think" that the "great crowd" step up one case. Shouldn't they be grateful?
The big problem is that naos is consistently used by the narrowest definition throughout Revelation. It is a building (3:12; 14:15,17; 15:5ff; 16:1,17), it doesn't include the courtyard (11:1f), it is the place of the ark of the covenant (11:19).
Edit (to yours): yes, it is certainly reasonable to bring in the other uses of naos in Revelation as indicative of what the writer meant by this term.
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icocer
thanks, a missed "the temple precincts"
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icocer
thanks, a missed "the temple precincts" which
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icocer
thanks, I missed "the temple precincts" which include the outer courts.
"Shouldn't they be greatful" I'll make sure to congradulate him
I have no idea what happened with all these post. My computer went crazy
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jwfacts
There is an article on the fallacy of the Great Crowd being on earth at http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/greatcrowd.htm Specifically in regards to your question there is the following:
A strong indication that the Great Crowd are in heaven is that Revelation 7:15 states that the Great Crowd are “ in his temple ”. The Greek word used is NAOS, which refers to the inner temple or temple sanctuary, rather than HIERON which is the outer courtyard of the temple. The Great Crowd are not on earth, they are in NAOS, the centre of the temple, the temple sanctuary; that is, they are in heaven itself with the 144,000.
The Watchtower Society understands this distinction between NAOS and HIERON. In the Watchtower 1960 August 15 p.493 it explained;
“The fact is that this temple was not just one building but a series of structures of which the temple sanctuary was the center . In the original tongue this is made quite clear, the Scripture writers distinguishing between the two by the use of the words hieron and naos. Hieron referred to the entire temple grounds, whereas naos applied to the temple structure itself, the successor of the tabernacle in the wilderness. Thus John tells that Jesus found all this traffic in the hieron .”
For this reason in Revelation the New World Translation usually renders NAOS as temple sanctuary such as at Revelation 11:2:
“But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations…” (see also Rev. 11:2,19; 14:15; 15:5-8; 16:1,17)
However in Revelation 7:15 the New World Translation just uses the term temple when translating NAOS.
For many years the Watchtower attempted to show that the temple sanctuary (NAOS) can at times mean the outer courtyard of the temple, where the Great Crowd must be standing. It turns out that this argument was both inadequate and deceitful.
In 1980 the Watchtower attempted to prove the Great Crowd are on earth by making the claim that the Greek word na·os' can mean the other courtyard. It used 4 proof texts.
1. It was from the courts of the outer temple ( na·os' ) that Jesus drove the money changers
2. It was the entire temple ( na·os' ) that was destroyed as a judgment from God
3. It was the entire temple ( na·os' ) that had been 46 years in the building john 2:19
4. It was in the outer temple ( na·os' ) that Judas threw back the 30 pieces of silver mat 27:5
Watchtower 1980 August 15 pp.14-16 The “Great Crowd” Renders Sacred Service Where?
“ Revelation 7:15 ( ED ) says that “they . . . publicly serve him day and night in his temple [ na·os´ in the Greek original text].” Well, now, does this mean that those making up this “great crowd” finally go to heaven where the God is to whom they ascribe their “salvation”?
… The question revolves around that original Greek word that is variously translated as “tent,” “temple” and “sanctuary.” (1.) For example, in the Bible account of where Jesus Christ drove the money changers and merchantmen out of Herod’s temple, the original Greek word used is na·os´ . There we read: “Jesus answered, (2.) ‘Destroy this sanctuary [ na·os´ ], and in three days I will raise it up’. The Jews replied, (3.) ‘It has taken forty-six years to build this sanctuary [ na·os´ ]: are you going to raise it up in three days?’ But he was speaking of the sanctuary [na·os´] that was his body.” (John 2:19-21, The Jerusalem Bible ) By “sanctuary,” what did those Jews mean?
5 Certainly not the inner sanctuary that contained the vestibule, the Holy and the Most Holy compartments. They meant the temple structure as a whole, including its courtyards, in one of which the money changers and merchantmen were doing business. Herod’s temple as a whole was destroyed by the Romans in 70 C.E. … Very plainly the temple, sanctuary, or na·os´ , does not mean just the inner sanctuary, but the entire temple area with all its structures.
… Matthew 27:5 reports: (4.) “Judas threw the money into the sanctuary [ na·os´ ] and left them; then he went off and hanged himself.”
The most obvious deception in this article is the statement that NAOS is used when describing where Jesus drove the money changers from. John 2:14-15 (see also Matt. 21:12 and Mark 11:15 in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation ) say it was from the HIERON that the money changers were driven.
“And he found in the temple (HIERON) those selling cattle and sheep and doves and the money brokers in their seats. 15 So, after making a whip of ropes, he drove all those with the sheep and cattle out of the temple ( HIERON) , and he poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables”
The argument is also unreliable when discussing John 2:19
“In answer Jesus said to them: “Break down this temple (NAOS), and in three days I will raise it up.”
Jesus refers to his body as the temple sanctuary NAOS, but when the bible describes the destruction of the temple as a whole it uses the word HEIRON. (See Matt. 24:1,2, Mark 13:1-3 and Luke 21:5,6 in the Kingdom Interlinear .)
In the next two examples it is only conjecture that use of the word NAOS refers to the entire temple. There is no evidence to show the Pharisees were referring to the entire temple at John 2:20 or that Judas threw the coins into the outer sanctuary. ( Matthew 27:5 )
Perceptive readers picked up on these false statements and by 2 002 the Watchtower Society was forced to change this reasoning and admit that the great crowd are not in the Courtyard of the Gentiles but in the temple sanctuary. Nevertheless they continue to state that the Great Crowd is on earth, though now there is little within the scripture to support this concept.
Watchtower 2002 May 1 pp.30-31
“When John saw the “great crowd” rendering sacred service in Jehovah’s temple, in which part of the temple were they doing this?—Revelation 7:9-15.
“It is reasonable to say that the great crowd worships Jehovah in one of the earthly courtyards of his great spiritual temple, specifically the one that corresponds with the outer courtyard of Solomon’s temple.
In times past, it has been said that the great crowd is in a spiritual equivalent, or an antitype, of the Court of the Gentiles that existed in Jesus’ day. However, further research has revealed at least five reasons why that is not so….”
Fifth, the Greek word ( hi·e·ron’ ) translated “temple” that is used with reference to the Court of the Gentiles “refers to the entire complex, rather than specifically to the Temple building itself,” says A Handbook on the Gospel of Matthew, by Barclay M. Newman and Philip C. Stine. In contrast, the Greek word ( na·os’ ) translated “temple” in John’s vision of the great crowd is more specific. In the context of the Jerusalem temple, it usually refers to the Holy of Holies, the temple building, or the temple precincts. It is sometimes rendered “sanctuary.”—Matthew 27:5, 51; Luke 1:9, 21; John 2:20.
Members of the great crowd exercise faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. They are spiritually clean, having “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Hence, they are declared righteous with a view to becoming friends of God and of surviving the great tribulation. (James 2:23, 25) In many ways, they are like proselytes in Israel who submitted to the Law covenant and worshiped along with the Israelites.
Of course, those proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard, where the priests performed their duties. And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah’s “holy priesthood” while they are on earth. (1 Peter 2:5) But as the heavenly elder said to John, the great crowd really is in the temple, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles. What a privilege that is! And how it highlights the need for each one to maintain spiritual and moral purity at all times! Of course, those proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard , where the priests performed their duties. And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah’s “holy priesthood” while they are on earth. (1 Peter 2:5) But as the heavenly elder said to John, the great crowd really is in the temple, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles. What a privilege that is! And how it highlights the need for each one to maintain spiritual and moral purity at all times!”
This new stand admits that the Great Crowd is in NAOS, the temple sanctuary, but gives no explanation as to how this can imply it is on earth.