Study Detects Recent Instance of Human Evolution

by zagor 142 Replies latest jw friends

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    We're certain that if the kids moved to Japan and consumed the standard Japanese diet, their kids would probably be of short stature

    Heh, heh, reminds me of ol' CT Russell's thoughts on the matter:

    *** The Watchtower Reprints, July 15, 1902, p. 3043 ***

    Suppose a missionary and his wife removed to China; not only would the influence of the climate and soil be manifested upon themselves, but the same would be still more manifested in their children. Whoever will give careful attention to this matter will notice that each succeeding child born in that foreign country will have increasingly resemblance to the Chinese — the hair, the skin, the shape of the eyes, and in general all features will bear closer resemblance with each succeeding child. We can readily suppose that if so much change occurs in a few years, ten or twenty centuries under similar conditions would turn any white people into regular Chinese, even supposing there were no intermarrying.

  • ZEN
    ZEN

    What a load of horseshit...Evolution happens only in your moron brains

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    I hope I can say this without offending anyone. It's not my purpose to offend. I simply want to get something out there on the table.

    Explaining evolution to the average person seems so much like explaining the Trinity. Trinitarians talk above the average person, and so do persons who espouse evolution. You each have your own vocabulary and special comaraderie among fellow believers. And when you use commonly understood terms, you string them out in such long convoluted sentences that we have to ponder your meaning before we can move on.

    But to many of us, you appear to be speaking about fables and a fanciful world never actually seen. Yes, the average person says he believes in evolution and in the Trinity. But hardly anyone can explain those concepts in terms that someone with an average education can understand, let alone a child. Most folks I know accept evolution on faith, not because it has been proven to them. "So-and-so professor believes it, so it must be true." But then we find out that not all professors believe in it.

    I have to accept what seems most logical to me, not what some other person has swallowed hook, line and sinker, or what some educated person claims is true but who seems incapable of making his beliefs simply and plainly understood.

    As I said above, no offense is intended. Just some food for thought for those of you who are so convinced and yet can't comprehend why some of us view your ideas with at least a wee bit of suspicion.

    Frank

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Did anyone read my questions?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Heh, heh, reminds me of ol' CT Russell's thoughts on the matter

    M.J....The fallacy of ol' Russell boy is assuming that all characteristics are non-genetic (i.e. from diet and environmental factors in the life of the individual)...but of course, he was writing when the science of genetics was in its infancy, so his mistake is quite understandable. Of course, there can be gradual adaptations to a given "climate" that are genetic in nature...so in part what Russell wrote is not too far removed from what happens in genetic adaptations. For instance, it has been estimated that without the intervention of cultural factors (including protections like sunscreen), the descendants of white Australians would be as dark-skinned as indigenous aborigines in about 10,000 years.

    However, I'm having trouble understanding how life forms can take on increasing complexity through genetic mutation. No, I'm not talking about "entropy". I see it this way. If you liken the genetic code to a computer code, where each coded function has a range of possible parameters, you can really tweak the parameters, eliminate functions, but how do you introduce a brand new function to the code without some form of external input?

    Good question....My understanding is that mutations may duplicate existing DNA sequences (thereby allowing a duplicate sequence to become a separate gene through subsequent copying errors), change the "spelling" of a sequence (thereby giving it a different function or making it non-functional), activate non-coding DNA into genes that encode protein, recombine existing genes (through such mechanisms as alternative splicing and tandem chimerism), and each of these developments may add complexity (or decrease it). There is "external input" in the form of ecological context which confers advantage or disadvantage to genetic functions. Bear in mind that almost 97% of the human genome is composed of junk DNA that is non-functional. These include former genes that were once functional but which were switched off as well as mutations that did not lead anywhere. Complexity arises in part through the increase of genes (e.g. prokaryotes have only a few thousand genes whereas maize has 59,000 genes and rice has 43,000 genes), but in higher vertebrates such as mammals it is more importantly through the decrease of genes that occurs through gene recombination (i.e. compare the 25,000 genes of humans and rodents with the 59,000 genes of maize)....compare the increasing morphological complexity in inflectional and polysynthetic languages like Sanskrit or Eskimo which pack more information into a single piece of morphology.

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate
    It is a straw man argument to only point out mutations that have negative consequences, what about all those that have no advantage or disadvantage whatsoever?

    I don't even know what a straw man aurgument is. The reason I point out the negative consequences of genetic mutations is because I have mutated genes and I passed them on to my son. During my research I find that there are thousands of mutations being mapped, of course the negative ones because that is where scientists focus for the good of mankind.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    >>Explaining evolution to the average person seems so much like explaining the Trinity. Trinitarians talk above the average person, and so do persons who espouse evolution. You each have your own vocabulary and special comaraderie among fellow believers. And when you use commonly understood terms, you string them out in such long convoluted sentences that we have to ponder your meaning before we can move on.

    Yes! Oh god, YES! When I first started looking into evolution, that was my biggest roadblock. It was "allele" this and "phylogeny" that, with a few macro's and micro's tossed in just in case you started to catch on.

    Without getting a degree in biology though, it is still possible to see very strong evidences of evolution. SeattleNiceGuy ran a series of articles on that very topic. You can see his last one, containing links to the others, here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/91134/1.ashx

    If you've been put off of evolution by knowier-than-thou attitudes and knee-deep nomenclature, you'll find his articles understandable and refreshing. Enjoy!

    (If I was in the market for a god, SNG would be on my shortlist!)

    Dave

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Frank....Unlike the fancies of theology, evolutionary biology and population genetics are natural sciences which have their own specialized vocabulary and concepts that describe natural processes and phenomena. If you do not understand the meaning of terms of "adaptation" and "speciation", there are many books and resources on the internet which explain these basic notions (and I did try to explain to some extent what is involved in speciation and describe the kind of scenario in which adaptation occurs). Since you weighed in on a scientific article that uses such language, I wrote at a similar level as the article itself in order to explain why your arguments are non-arguments and/or misunderstand various aspects of evolutionary biology. I still tried to keep things as brief as possible and give a very detailed description of the lactose tolerance situation to help make clear what I was talking about.

    Trinitarians talk above the average person, and so do persons who espouse evolution. You each have your own vocabulary and special comaraderie among fellow believers.

    Interesting that you liken evolutionary biology to religion rather than science, especially in view that the "vocabulary" that is used is scientific terminology that is part and parcel of any scientific discipline. "Adaptation" is just as basic a term in evolutionary biology as "kinetic energy" is in physics.

    But to many of us, you appear to be speaking about fables and a fanciful world never actually seen. Yes, the average person says he believes in evolution and in the Trinity. But hardly anyone can explain those concepts in terms that someone with an average education can understand, let alone a child.

    That is a testimony to the sad state of science education if what you describe is generally the case. Would you similarly describe "plate tectonics" or "stellar formation" the same way....as mere "fables"? The basics of evolution are really not that hard to describe in plain language....I have done it at least once in detail in earlier threads (check my post history....I last posted on this during the summer, I believe). I got the basic concept in a single lecture in high school biology, tho there is much more to learn than that.

    BTW, there is a difference between explaining the basic concept and trying to show the evidence for it or how the evidence can best be explained by the concept. Much fewer people are able of this, tho I have tried to do both (because many people are biased against evolution to begin with, so you have to show how it explains the evidence). Consider trying to explain heliocentrism to someone who only knows what he can observe with his own eyes. Sure, it is very easy to say, "The sun does not revolve around the earth...the earth orbits around the sun and the rotation of the earth on its axis makes it seem to an observer on the earth that the sun revolves around the earth, when it really doesn't", and we all have an implicit understanding of this. But if you talk to someone who is already biased against this understanding, how would you explain heliocentrism so that it would be apparent to a geocentrist that heliocentrism is a much better explanation than what he can see with his own eyes? That takes a much more long-winded and involved answer, because you have to get into the science that bears on the matter.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    I also go by what I see and don't see. I've never seen God take a lump of clay and breath life into it. But, I wonder why God couldn't have made primates with 30 or 34 teeth instead of 32. It would have helped me a little. Or why does the whale have that hip bone floating in its body? There are thousands of these things.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Here is something from a few months ago on adaptation:

    In the ocean near Antarctica lives a family of fish (within the Notothenioidae) called the icefish which unlike any other fish (or vertebrate) on the planet has no red blood cells in its veins. In fact, even its white blood cell count is only 1%; in other words, their blood is literally ice water. For any other animal, this would mean instant death. But the icefish gets along just dandy because the near-freezing water of the Antarctic is more highly oxygenated than water at warmer temperatures. With so much oxygen in the water, the icefish does not need hemoglobin to circulate oxygen in its system. Moreover, not only is hemoglobin unnecessary, it is also a deteriment at freezing temperatures. Its viscosity increases the colder it gets and increased viscosity naturally interferes with circulation. Thus even red-blooded Antarctic fish have a dramatically lower percentage of hemoglobin in their blood.

    With no hemoglobin in their blood, a creationist might reckon that -- of all the fish in the world -- these fish were simply uniquely created that way. But when you look at their DNA, the two hemoglobin genes are indeed present in the code, exactly where they would be found in red-blooded fish. The two genes however are corrupted; the first gene is missing pieces of code whereas the second is almost entirely eroded away. These are mutations, plain and simple, and they explain why the fish do not have hemoglobin: the corrupted DNA cannot produce hemoglobin proteins.

    Now, these mutations (which represent not a single mutation event but a series of deformations or copying errors to the DNA) would have been absolutely fatal to a fish -- or person -- who lived in an environment that required the use of hemoglobin. If it was something that happened to a human egg, we would have a great example of how mutations can cause birth defects and death. But this is not what happened with the icefish, for they are all alive and well today. These mutations thus did not have a detrimental effect and indeed were beneficial. Antarctic fish that received mutations preventing the production of red blood cells would lack the viscocity posed by hemoglobin and thus have more efficient circulation systems that would allow a greater input of oxygen from the highly oxygenated ice water. This allowed mutated fish to live in colder waters than red-blooded fish could have lived and also prevented them from living in warmer waters where fish without the mutations could easily live. Rather than causing death, the corrupted genes were passed on to successive generations because they faciliated better adaptation to cold water.

    That adaptation was involved is apparent from the history of Antarctica. Prior to 65 million years ago it had a warm climate; dinosaurs lived there and ocean temperatures were warm as well. But the climate began to change in the Cenozoic Era and continental drift brought Antarctica down to the southern pole where it became surrounded all around by ocean. The Antarctic Circumpolar Current that circles this ocean effectively isolates Antarctic fish from those to the north, preventing them from migrating to warmer waters. Characteristics that helped fish to live in an increasingly colder environment, like the hemoglobin mutations but also larger gills (which admit a greater amount of water), would logically became more widespread in the population because such fish were more likely to spawn than less adapted fish. The mutations hindering the production of hemoglobin would have then become more and more common in the breeding population (isolated from their kin in warmer waters) over successive generations, with functioning genes becoming more and more scarce (e.g. selective breeding), until we have the breeding population we see today, with all known icefish in their respective species lacking any hemoglobin in their circulatory systems.

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