Does God Use An Organization - Debate With Elder!

by stevieb1 12 Replies latest jw friends

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  stevieb1

  I have read Tom Cabeen's excellent work "Does God Work Through An Organization" which I wholeheartedly support.

  A while back a JW elder sent me a document which he had written entitled "The Christian Congregation And The Twentieth Century" in which he tries to prove that God is using an organization on earth today. I am requesting your help in refuting these claims. The most significant claims of this document I will present in several parts on this board. So onto the first page, the elder makes these statements:

  POINT 1 "Who could read the message of Christ to the seven congregations (Revelation 2-4) without concluding that the individual members were united in a communal or organisational sense?"

  POINT 2 "it is very significant that the figurative expressioons applied to the congregation, although numerous, almost invariably emphasize that the individual Christian is part of a structured group. In the imagery of scripture the Christian is likened to a soldier in an army (2 Timothy 2:3) a stone in a temple (1 Peter 2:5) a slave in a household, a member of a family, a member of a priestly order (1 Peter 2:9) and part of a worldwide brotherhood (1 Peter 5:9). The point of all of these analogies is surely lost if we are to assume that the individuals are united by nothing more than shared beliefs. Furthermore, it can be demonstrated that the same language is applied to a latter day congregation."

  So these points form the introduction to this short thesis. This, in the mind of this elder is a demonstration "that the first century congregation was an organised association......"

  How would we respond to this?
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  ISP

  The accounts of Revelation prove very little. In fact the accounts if anything show how JC dealt directly with the congregations. He did not deal thru. an intermediary i.e. the FDS. I don't think the congregations were united in any way. Some believed in different sects and one tolerated a female prophet. Like how many congregations allow that today?! History shows that first century Christianity was a complete mess doctrinally. No different today.

  Christians may be viewed as soldiers, stones ie part of a larger group without God using an organisation. In the sense that God accepts them.....wherever there are.

  *** Rbi8 Acts 10:34-35 ***
  At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

  Get him to show you evidence that God is directing the WTS!

  ISP
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  Seeker

  POINT 1 "Who could read the message of Christ to the seven congregations (Revelation 2-4) without concluding that the individual members were united in a communal or organisational sense?"

  It is clear that the most organized the first century Christians ever got was on a congregation basis, which is merely a local group of like-minded individuals who decide to get together to discuss their faith. There were messages sent back and forth between congregations, and while the apostles were alive they gave advice, but that's it. Similarly today, Christians certainly can get together in small groups or congregations, but beyond that there is no command.

  POINT 2 "it is very significant that the figurative expressioons applied to the congregation, although numerous, almost invariably emphasize that the individual Christian is part of a structured group. In the imagery of scripture the Christian is likened to a soldier in an army (2 Timothy 2:3) a stone in a temple (1 Peter 2:5) a slave in a household, a member of a family, a member of a priestly order (1 Peter 2:9) and part of a worldwide brotherhood (1 Peter 5:9). The point of all of these analogies is surely lost if we are to assume that the individuals are united by nothing more than shared beliefs. Furthermore, it can be demonstrated that the same language is applied to a latter day congregation."

  This shows lack of faith in Jesus as the head of the congregation. All those figurative expressions are just that: figurative. We are not talking about a literal army, or priesthood. Just as the literal temple was replaced by the spiritual temple, these are spiritual structures. Jesus can gather together his followers in a spiritual sense, unifying them himself. He does not require humans to do the organizing for him, for that would usurp his role.
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  dungbeetle

  First things first....how does the word 'congregation' translate to 'organization'? This is a house built, not just on sand, but QUICKSAND.

  Ask him what the the Greek and Hebrew word is for 'organization' and find it in the Greek Interlinear or other Interlinear Bible. (smile smile)

  And finally, why write individual letters to the different congregations, (some were blessed with more than one)if they were all 'one'. Why not one letter, or a series of them, to just one that would be circulated to each in turn? That's what the Watchtower often does today, under this belief system...surely the Christian bible writers would have done the same then if they were under that same belief system.

  This isn't Ragu; it ain't in there...

  Dungbeetle...so much dung, so little time...
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  ISP

  The WTS teaches that there was a centralised,first century, governing body operating from Jerusalem with earthwide authority to supervise and direct all congregations of true Christians everywhere in all matters. It is therefore a pattern for today.

  There appears to be valid reason to doubt that on the basis of what actually took place. God’s spirit spoke to the congregation in Antioch in V2 below.

  *** Rbi8 Acts 13:1-5 ***
  13 Now in Antioch there were prophets and teachers in the local congregation, Bar'na·bas as well as Sym'e·on who was called Ni'ger, and Lucius of Cy·re'ne, and Man'a·en who was educated with Herod the district ruler, and Saul. 2 As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Of all persons set Bar'na·bas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then they fasted and prayed and laid their hands upon them and let them go.
  4 Accordingly these men, sent out by the holy spirit, went down to Se·leu'cia, and from there they sailed away to Cy'prus. 5 And when they got to be in Sal'a·mis they began publishing the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. They had John also as an attendant.

  So Jesus was acting as the head of the congregation and taking action directly, without consulting anybody here on earth as to what he could do and what he could not do. And he acted in that way in regard to Saul and Barnabus and they were both apostles of the Antioch congregation.

  And where did these ones report to? They went back to Antioch not Jerusalem.

  *** Rbi8 Acts 14:21-22 ***
  21 And after declaring the good news to that city and making quite a few disciples, they returned to Lys'tra and to I·co'ni·um and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to remain in the faith and [saying]: “We must enter into the kingdom of God through many tribulations.”

  BTW it was in Antioch the brothers became known as Christians.

  *** Rbi8 Acts 11:25-26 ***
  25 So he went off to Tarsus to make a thorough search for Saul 26 and, after he found him, he brought him to Antioch. It thus came about that for a whole year they gathered together with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.

  ISP
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  ISP

  BTW, Seeker are you a formal worshipper/have belief system? Just interested.

  Best.

  ISP
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  Seeker

  ISP,

  Agnostic secular humanist, actually. I merely answered the questions based on the Christian perspective of what the Bible actually says, as opposed to what the WTS says. My response did not describe my personal beliefs. I was just trying to help.
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  waiting

  individual members were united in a communal or organisational sense?"

  Big difference in a community, commune, and organization. Members could be found in each style grouping. As for being united, two or more can be united. In no way does this prove a worldwide organization.

  The point of all of these analogies is surely lost if we are to assume that the individuals are united by nothing more than shared beliefs.

  And just what are Christians (and any other type of group) but a group of individuals who are united by a shared belief. I believe the Taliban proved that point violently.

  Furthermore, it can be demonstrated that the same language is applied to a latter day congregation."

  The application of language doesn't prove anything. Most people fluent with words can prove what they want - ask any politician or preacher.

  Until one stops to think about what the elder is actually giving as proofs, his words sound good. But logically, his arguments are built "on quicksand," as has been brought out.

  waiting
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  MacHislopp

  Hello Isp,

  thanks for the comments and the quote.

  Here are few thoughts:

  **organisation is something ...invented by Rutheford
  and strenghtened after his death with changes in the
  WTBTS legal status.

  **Excellent point about the Antioch's congregation or
  e'kklesia or "church ". It was acting and taking
  decision without having to consult the brothers in
  Jerusalem and Judea.

  **Paul never spoke of such organisation...as a metter of fact
  he wentto Jerusalem ..after years...because of a revelation!

  **The WTBS stated that the FDS was a class " 1900 years old.."
  yet C.T. Russell did not contact such class... but he
  started on his own.

  More proof if one wishes.

  Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp

  " One who has an accurate knowledge
  of God's Word will have no problem
  in refuting false religious ideas".
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  Rex B13

  By jove, you've got it, Seeker.
  Bully for you.
  Rex