by Peacekeeper 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Here's a link to one of Dave's (AlmostAtheist's) postings. He has revised the article a few times, I think. If you search his post history you will find other threads with comments from others. All very interesting.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/79690/1295207/post.ashx#1295207
-Aude.
In the elders book that is available in pdf from reexamine around page 92 it list heaps of things that you could be dfed for. Birthdays are not mentioned, but observing pagan celebrations is.
As I have mentioned to family members, if God says birthdays are so bad, why are the not mentioned along with drunkardness, fornication etc in 1 Cor?
Job 1:4...."And his sons went and held a banquet at the house of each one on his own day...".
Dubs will say, "that doesn't mean it was their birthday".
Job 3:1,2...."1. It was after this that Job opened his mouth and began to call down evil upon his day. 2. Job now answered and said: "Let the day perish on which I was born".
Dear Peacekeeper,
I did a thread on this a while back. Here is what I posted. Hopefully it will help you.
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
| Good Morning All and Happy Tuesday, Most everyone knows that Jehovahs Witnesses do not celebrate birthdays. The reason is that there are two examples given in the Bible of birthdays and bad things happened both times. Since the Bible was recorded for us, we must take that to mean that we should shun the celebration of them. The claim is also used that early Christians did not celebrate birthdays and we follow their example. We would not want to put anyone on a pedistal for honor and glory. Now.. are these claims really true? You be the judge... 1. True, there were two incidents that someone died at birthdays. Yet, if you read the accounts, the events recorded were not focused on the birthdays. If you gave the passages for someone to read what would be the gist of the passage? Was it really about the birthday? Or rather was it about everything else that was going on in the story. If you re-read the accounts without thinking "Birthday", you may see there is much more to these passages. And it was recorded for a much deeper reason. 2. False, there are not just two birthdays recorded in the Bible, there are three! The greatest birth of all isn't even thought of when Witnesses think of birthdays in the Bible. How about the birth of Christ Jesus? The angels in the heavens cried out with joy. I am sure there was a great celebration of his birth in the heavens. Why would it be ok to celebrate and be over come with joy at such a wonderful event, then only 1 year later pretend like we don't remember it at all? See The Greatest Man book- 1991 pag. 5. What an important night this is! Out in the fields a bright light gleams around a group of shepherds. It is Jehovah’s glory! And Jehovah’s angel tells them: "Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in David’s city. And this is a sign for you: you will find an infant bound in cloth bands and lying in a manger." Suddenly many more angels appear and sing: "Glory in the heights above to God, and upon earth peace among men of goodwill." When the angels leave, the shepherds say to one another: "Let us by all means go clear to Bethlehem and see this thing that has taken place, which Jehovah has made known to us." They go in a hurry and find Jesus just where the angel said they would. When the shepherds relate what the angel told them, all who hear about it marvel. Mary safeguards all these sayings and cherishes them in her heart. 3. False, Job was a perfect example of one who was favored by God, yet he was honoring his childrens birthdays. Infact, the Bible says he was blameless and upright in God's eyes. See-Job 1:4: Job 1 There happened to be a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man proved to be blameless and upright, and fearing God and turning aside from bad. 2 And seven sons and three daughters came to be born to him. 3 And his livestock got to be seven thousand sheep and three thousand camels and five hundred spans of cattle and five hundred she-asses, along with a very large body of servants; and that man came to be the greatest of all the Orientals.4 And his sons went and held a banquet at the house of each one on his own day; and they sent and invited their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 And it would occur that when the banquet days had gone round the circuit, Job would send and sanctify them; and he got up early in the morning and offered up burnt sacrifices according to the number of all of them; for, said Job, "maybe my sons have sinned and have cursed God in their heart." That is the way Job would do always.4. What about the Societys view on the Pinata? It has religious and "pagan" roots. Yet see here what the Society feels about using them today. Are they wrong now because it was once a pagan custom? See for yourself in the September 22, 2003 Awake, page 22. The PiñataTodayLater, the piñata became part of the festivities of the posadas during the Christmas season and continues as such to this day. (A star-shaped piñata is used to represent the star that guided the astrologers to Bethlehem.) Breaking the piñata is also considered indispensable at birthday parties. Indeed, piñatas have become so traditionally Mexican that Mexico even exports them to other countries. We found that for many people in Mexico, the piñata has lost its religious significance and is considered by most to be just harmless fun. In fact, piñatas are used in Mexico on many festive occasions, not just for the posadas or for birthdays. And piñatas can be purchased in many forms other than the traditional star shape. They are sometimes made to resemble animals, flowers, clowns. When considering whether to include a piñata at a social gathering, Christians should be sensitive to the consciences of others. (1 Corinthians 10:31-33) A main concern is, not what the practice meant hundreds of years ago, but how it is viewed today in your area. Understandably, opinions may vary from one place to another. Hence, it is wise to avoid turning such matters into big issues. The Bible says: "Let each one keep seeking, not his own advantage, but that of the other person."—1 Corinthians 10:24. So in conclusion, when a person allows themselves to weigh all of this out, are Birthdays really wrong for true Christians today? It sure makes you think again doesn't it? Sincerely, Lady Liberty | |
| IP: 48HwDi1Dp4+lcOCO | |
WT does not allow celebration of birthdays. Why? because the only two places the word "birthday" is used is in reference to Pharoah and Herod. On both occassions someone died (the baker on Pharoah's and John the Baptist on Herods)
My opinion: This in no way say not to celebrate birthdays. just because those are the only times the actual word "birthday" is used does not mean you can not celebrate. They celebrated Jesus birthday: angels sang, wisemen even brought gifts. They celebrated John's birthday: the sang, danced, and feasted. They celebrated Job's sons birthday. if God did not want you to celebrate birthdays, he would have said it.
This is something that I have learned to loathe about WTBS, they pick and choose their secular evidence to suit them:
The ancient Anglo-Saxons celebrated the birthday of the "Lord Moon", spoken of as meni at Isaiah 65:11 (margin), by making cakes "called Nur-Cakes, or Birthcakes"
There is also evidence to support the fact that the birthday cake is merely a reproduction of the placenta. In older cultures, where women had much more traditional means of dealing with the cycles of life (eg, even in Israelite tribes they had the red tent where women would retire to for their menstruation time) they would actually honour and respect life's conditions. This wasn't veneration, just their way of being in tune with life and celebrating life. They did things differently back then because of their limitations. Today, the WTBS would write an article on "Jehovah's marvelous life giving creation - the placenta", or a pregnant women would spend time reading about the miracles of life, the baby's growth stages, the job of the placenta etc and be in awe and gratitude for it. Back in older times they expressed it in a different way, not with written word, books or the internet, they did it the only way they knew how, by marking occasions, passing down wisdom from generation to generation - in song, stories and celebrations.
No doubt the Anglo-Saxons also had their own reasons for doing what they did. But for every 'pagan' example they can come up with, there are also other examples that aren't pagan, just cultural or traditional.
Shit, this birthday one bugs me because it is such a meaninglessly obtuse rule they have. It goes against the whole spirit of valuing the gift of life.
Again, even though it has been said. The whole aspect around marriage (celebrating anniversaries, which in my mind is celebrating the 'birth' of a marriage. And the rings, which can be argued, have pagan origins) is proof that they just pick and choose what suits them.
Note especially however this part:
The ancient Anglo-Saxons celebrated the birthday of the "Lord Moon", spoken of as meni at Isaiah 65:11 (margin), by making cakes "called Nur-Cakes, or Birthcakes"; and candles also are of pagan origin.—See Hislop’s Two Babylons, pages 95, 191-196.
Hislop is not a credible source. The reader should be aware of this. He mixes things together that have nothing to do with each other, often through false etymologies, and frequently gets the details wrong (which are distorted even further in the Society's paraphrase of Hislop). For instance, noor-cakes are not birthday cakes or even Christmas Day cakes; the word noor is the Scottish pronunciation of "New Year" (also spelled Noo'eer), as these are oatmeal cakes given as gifts on the last day of the year (Hogmanay). But Hislop asserts that nur is the Chaldee word for "birth" and thus nur-cakes are "birthcakes". Leaving aside the fact that Aramaic (which is the language Hislop calls "Chaldee") has nothing at all to do with Reformation-era Scotland (as the festival of Hogmanay is of French origin), the word nwr in Aramaic has the sense of "flame, light, enlighten, be revealed or disclosed", not "birth" (which instead is yld' ). Only through a contortion of the metaphorical sense of "be revealed" could one strain the meaning as "be born". Hislop also tries to derive "Hogmanay" from Aramaic, saying it is "Chaldee" for "the feast of the numberer", which he then leaps to connect without explanation to the Greco-Roman Deus Lunus (literally, "moon god") hypostasis of the Moon. This is nothing more than an invented etymology, with just as much legitimacy as deriving Hagmanay from English hog money. Rather, as hagmané it is a loan from Normandy French hoguinané, itself a regional pronunciation of aguillanneuf "New Year's Day" which had other dialectal forms including haguilennef, aguilloneu, and haguimenlo. Then he strangely associates this Scottish New Year's festival to a Sabean Arabian festival on 24 December in the honor of "Lord Moon". Note that was there no such Anglo-Saxon festival for "Lord Moon". But Hislop uses Isaiah 65:11 as the glue to link Sabean Arabia (which stands in for "Babylonia," what is really discussed in Isaiah) to Anglo-Saxon (which stands in for much later Scotland) Britain, even tho the three have nothing to do with the other. Thus the Sabeans celebrated the birth of a "Lord Moon" in December, Isaiah 65:11 mentions a drink offering made to "Meni" (Hebrew for "destiny", in parallelism with gd "fortune"), and the "Anglo-Saxons" had a festival in December in such "noor" (read: birth) cakes were made. There's no "Lord Moon" or cakes in Isaiah 65:11, and what is presented as a simple factual statement by the Society is couched in rather speculative language by Hislop:
It must have been the birth-day of the Lord Moon, therefore, and not of the Sun, that was celebrated by them on the 25th of December, even as the birth-day of the same Lord Moon was observed by the Arabians on the 24th of December. The name of the Lord Moon in the East seems to have been Meni, for this appears the most natural interpretation of the Divine statement in Isaiah lxv. 11, "But ye are they that forsake my holy mountain, that prepare a temple for Gad, and that furnish the drink-offering unto Meni." There is reason to believe that Gad refers to the sun-god, and that Meni in like manner designates the moon-divinity.... That it was the birth of the "Lord Moon" that was celebrated among our ancestors at Christmas, we have remarkable evidence in the name that is still given in the lowlands of Scotland to the feast on the last day of the year, which seems to be a remnant of the old birth festival for the cakes then made are called Nur-Cakes, or Birth-cakes.
"I am currently reviewing various doctrines of the WT." Why? This site is about Jehovah's Witnesses, so why review doctrines of the Watchtower Society, a printing company? And as to birthday celebrations, Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate them because Jesus did not direct and celebrate his, so if his birthday was not important enough to be commemorated then why would ours be? And why waste the time and money on that stuff?
Don't be such a party pooper Grissom ! Have some . Another piece of ? How about some or with that. Here I'll take your dirty while you have a .
Juni
Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread. I am going to review everyone's comments and pull a document together for reference. There are many good reasons to review JW doctrines in this forum, for example: you guys\girls have a lot of knowledge and experience and help to put a balanced perspective on things rather than the one sided JW view. + I need good sound arguments to refute JW arguments. There are others which I will discuss later.
It also helps me in my research of JW teachings.
I will post again soon
Thanks
Peacekeeper
