Just monkeying around Drew.
Great Crowd Appeared in 1930's........or did it?
by drew sagan 25 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
Justitia Themis
Cyberguy is correct. They distinguish between the Great Crowd and Other Sheep. The Other Sheep are prospective members of the Great Crowd.
***
w954/15p.31QuestionsFromReaders***Questions
FromReadersTechnically
speaking,isthereadifferencebetweentheBiblicalterms"othersheep"and"greatcrowd"?Yes, though we should not be unduly sensitive about word usage or be upset if someone uses the terms interchangeably.
Most Christians are familiar with the passages where we find these terms. John 10:16 is one. There Jesus said: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd." The other expression, "great crowd," appears at Revelation 7:9. We read: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."
Let us consider John 10:16 first. Who are the sheep? Well, it would be good to fix in mind that all of Jesus’ loyal followers are referred to as sheep. At Luke 12:32, he called those of his disciples who would be going to heaven the "little flock." A flock of what? Of sheep. The "sheep" of the "little flock" will be part of the Kingdom in heaven. However, there are others, those with a different hope, whom Jesus also views as sheep.
We can see this in John chapter 10. After speaking about sheep such as his apostles whom he would call to life in heaven, Jesus added in verse 16: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring." Jehovah’s Witnesses have long recognized that in this verse Jesus was speaking of people having the prospect of life on earth. Many faithful ones in pre-Christian times, such as Abraham, Sarah, Noah, and Malachi, had such prospects. So we can rightly include them as part of the "other sheep" of John 10:16. During the Millennium, such faithful pre-Christian witnesses will be resurrected and will then learn of and accept Christ Jesus, becoming "other sheep" of the Fine Shepherd.
We also know that since the general call of the heavenly class ended, millions have become true Christians. These too are rightly termed "other sheep," since they are not part of the "little flock." Rather, the other sheep today look forward to living right on into an earthly paradise.
Now, what can be said about the identity of the "great crowd" mentioned at Revelation 7:9? Well, look at verse 13 and the question, "Who are they and where did they come from?" We find the answer at Revelation 7:14: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation." So the "great crowd" is composed of those who come out of, or survive, the great tribulation. As verse 17 says, they will be ‘guided to fountains of waters of life’ on earth.
Understandably, though, for these to survive the approaching great tribulation, they must earlier have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, becoming true worshipers. Hence, though Revelation 7:9 is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term "great crowd" to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations’ attack on false religion.
In summary, we might remember "other sheep" as the broader term, encompassing all of God’s servants having the hope of living forever on earth. It includes the more limited category of sheeplike ones today who are being gathered as a "great crowd" with the hope of living right through the impending great tribulation. Most of those loyal Christians alive today are of the "other sheep," and they are part of the "great crowd" as well.
It is worth repeating that, fine as it is to be clear on these specifics, there is no need for any Christian to be overly word conscious—what might be called word critical. Paul warned about some who were "puffed up with pride" and involved in "debates about words." (1 Timothy 6:4) If we personally recognize certain distinctions between terms, fine. Yet, we need not, either outwardly or inwardly, be critical of another who may not use Biblical terms quite as precisely.
-
drew sagan
That 95' article was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks Justitia Themis!
So it seems that the question is just left hanging. They simply have not reconciled the fact that the great crowd can not appear in the 1930's and at the same time be here for the great tribulation past the lifespan of those people. Instead they seem to be intent on making the subject sipmly confusing and then accuse people of fighting over words that find the problem with the teaching. Seems like this should be a topic us aposates should know by heart.
The WTS knows it can't make dead people who where once 'great crowd prospects' members of the great crowd (although you really had me there Perry!). If they could have done this I think we would have allready seen it happen.
I think what we have here are men at Brooklyn that actually think that are people alive today who professed membership to the great crowd in the 1930's who will see the great tribulation. They may not actually print their views because it is to dangerous, but they still have them.
This seems to be a problem the WTS want to keep far away from the minds of JWs, so that 30 years from now when 'new light flashes forth' nobody will have ever caught on. -
onacruse
Justitia T, my thanks as well! As I was driving to work today, I was racking my brain, thinking "Darnit, I'm sure there was a QFR on this!" (And yes, I do need therapy for this condition) LOL
And drew, here's a follow-up question: If one of the anointed survives Armageddon (as has been speculated quite frequently for over 50 years), then does he/she also become one of the "great crowd"?
"Hi, Abraham, I'm one of the anointed remnant great crowd class...not of the Naomi class, ya know, but of the Ruth class...and I've been busy doing the Elisha work, not the Elijah work, even as the Greater-than-Isaac told me."
-
jwfacts
w01 1/15 p. 19 Keep in Step With Jehovah’s Organization ***12 Prior to the 1930’s, many of God’s people were somewhat uncertain about their hope for future life. Some had thoughts about heavenly life but were fascinated by Bible teachings about a paradise earth.
The Watchtower loves to put in these misleading quotes, to support their new light theory. The fact is that Great Crowd had no uncertainty about their future as they were clearly a heavenly group.
What Pastor Russell Said p.297 " Does the Great Company receive life direct from God on the spirit plane? Answer -- Yes, they receive life direct in that they have been begotten of the Holy Spirit, and when they are begotten they are just the same way as the little flock, because we are called in the one hope of our calling. They do not make their calling and election sure, but not being worthy of second death, they therefore receive life on the spirit plane."
Watchtower 1927 15 January pp.19–20 “The Great Multitude,” “… all the facts and the scriptures bearing upon the matter under consideration show that those who form the great multitude constitute a spirit class, born on the spirit plane .”
It was not until Rutherford started making illogical changes to the doctrine just prior to 1935 (and so directly because of him) that the followers started to be confused and uncertain about their future hope.
-
onacruse
Actually, the great crowd (also typically described with other terms in the quote below), were considered a bunch of losers:
Light Book 2 p. 157-8
Why should it be said that a secondary class would be blessed, when all the other scriptures show that these composing the "great multitude" or ‘tribulation class’ are negligent and respond to the call too late to share in the Bridegroom’s feast? (Matthew 25:10) The "blessed" ones are the "called, and chosen, and faithful" ones, and none other...Many of those who received the invitation to the wedding supper made excuses. One claimed that he had a real estate deal to close; another that he had bought some oxen; another that he had married a wife and must attend to his obligations to her. Concerning them Jesus said: "None of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper." (Luke 14:24) This exactly describes what the "great multitude" class have been doing; namely, making all manner of excuses to justify themselves in keeping away from service and devotion to the Lord.
This is but one of dozens of remarks that Rutherford made that demeaned the great crowd.
-
heathen
Paul warned about some who were "puffed up with pride" and involved in "debates about words." (1 Timothy 6:4) If we personally recognize certain distinctions between terms, fine. Yet, we need not, either outwardly or inwardly, be critical of another who may not use Biblical terms quite as precisely.
Yah right and who is that gets all puffed up over words and imagery more than the WTBTS? You could go on all night over what the word stauros means to a dubby and they will insist they are the only ones that got it right when you can produce expert annalysis that says otherwise . I think when jesus mentioned other sheep he was talking about gentiles , can't think of the scripture off hand but think it was in james somewhere. Apparently it was a new arrangement because the gentiles could not worship the same as the jews in the old one. Personally I believe the 144k are martyrs anyway, making them different from the GC . They rule the GC in the kingdom of the heavens during the millenial reign.
-
TD
Some additional points:
At the time the "Great Crowd" was "Identified" (1935) it was thought that the Great Tribulation had already commenced; had been "Cut Short" (i.e. The Great War) and shortly would start again in earnest and culuminate in Armageddon.
The "Great Crowd" had "Come Out" of the "Great Tribulation" in the eye of the hurricane as it were.
This was changed in 1970 when the "Great Tribulation" was moved to an event entirely in the future. (cf. The Watchtower, January 15, 1970 pp. 52-53) The supposed "Bright Flash Of Light" in 1935 was perpetuated by tying the "Great Crowd" doctrine to the "Generation" doctrine. IOW since the entire sign would occur within one generation, the identification of the "Great Crowd" was still justified at the time since they had the prospect of surviving it.
Notice how clearly this idea comes out in this 1985 quote:
"God’s infallible Word depicts this group as ‘coming out of the great tribulation,’ being survivors of it, living right on into God’s New Order without ever having to die. (Revelation 7:9, 10, 14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60’s or 70’s or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The "great crowd," including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the "new earth." Survival Into A New Earth p. 185)
The quote Justitia Themis has provided amounts to backpeddling on the part of the WTS plain and simple. It is the tip of a wedge that is being driven between the "Great Crowd" and the "Other Sheep" creating a third group in the Christian era that has no Biblical support whatsoever even by JW logic.
This IMHO is "doctrinal dynamite" they're playing with
It calls into question the very concept of Christian salvation and the uniqueness of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Even though Christians do not serve God specifically for a reward, salvation is still a central tenet of Christianity. Christians hope to be "saved" and although Jehovah’s Witnesses have divided Christians into two classes, both groups look forward to their respective salvations
If and when it becomes apparent to the rank and file that the hope of their parents and grandparents was never really materially different than that of any Catholic or Protestant alive at the same time, (e.g. To live out their lives in the "old system," die and eventually be resurrected at some future date) the question, "What lasting benefit was there in being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place?" would inevitably follow.
For example, in practical terms, what is the difference today between a non-anointed JW that suffered in a Nazi concentration camp and a guard in that camp now that they are both dead?
I think the leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses would have a very hard time with such a question. We all know that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that they are unique and that what they are doing is vitally important for survival. For example, ever since 1931, they have taught that the "man with the writer’s inkhorn" of Ezekiel 9:11 represents the "anointed remnant" who, under divine direction, mark the "other sheep" for survival at Armageddon. The August 1, 1932 issue of The Watchtower openly declared that, "It is the Jonadab class that is marked, and these are to be spared" (p. 232)
However if the "great crowd" were in a state of "flux" it would mean that the "faithful and discreet slave" have marked substantial numbers of the "other sheep" to survive an event that they never had any real hope of surviving in the first place because it lay outside of the boundaries of a normal human lifespan. Such an admission would not only be embarrassing, it would call into question the reality of the supposed "divine direction" behind this "marking" work.
-
heathen
For example, in practical terms, what is the difference today between a non-anointed JW that suffered in a Nazi concentration camp and a guard in that camp now that they are both dead?
I think the difference according to the WTBTS is that the j-dub in prison had proved himself righteous(according to whatever truth was available) while the guard proved himself unrighteous . The righteous get life and the unrighteous get everlasting abhorrences .
I'm glad you posted that stuff about what the j-dubs were saying about the tribulation .I'm not sure what the current belief is , whether the tribulation began in WW1 or what. They did say the 4 horses of the apocolypse ride and continue their ride of war, famine ,death, hades.
-
drew sagan
I think the difference according to the WTBTS is that the j-dub in prison had proved himself righteous(according to whatever truth was available) while the guard proved himself unrighteous . The righteous get life and the unrighteous get everlasting abhorrences .
There is no doubt in my mind that this is the answer most JWs would give to this question. But there is a major problem with this idea!
JWs clearly say in their new 'Bible Teach' book that Judgement Day is not a single day, but instead the 1000 year reign of Christ. It is during this day that people will be judged by what they did during that day itself and not by their past.
This of course leaves a big question, the one that TD hit on. By what standards are people going to be resurrected on? By what standards must people attain in order to be brought back.
Heathen used the pharse 'proved himself righteouss' in regards to those who are given the opportunity to come back. The major problem with this is that God would be judging people according to something they did in their past, which the 'Bible Teach' book says will NOT happen. The Bible Teach Books states on page 214:According to the apostle John's vision, "scrolls were opened," and "the dead were judged out of those things writen in the scrolls according to their deeds." Are these scrolls the record of people's past deeds? No, the judgement will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible say: "He who has died has been acquitted from his sin." (Romans 6:7) Those resurrected thus come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls must therefore represent Gods's further requirements. To live forever, both Armageddon survivors and resurrected ones will have to obey God's commandments, including whatever new requirements Jehovah might reveal during the thousand years. Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgement Day.
So they clearly state that the Judgement takes place for what they do during that peroid of time, and nothing before. If this is true how can there be standards by which people are resurrected? There simply cannot be any standards becasue if there where then God would be judging people, something is said to happen at a later time.
I also want to give a big thank you to TD, excellent comments!!!
-Drew