JW Discussion Forum Poll

by zarco 66 Replies latest jw friends

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  zarco

  Auldsoul,

  Thanks for your comments. I wrongly assumed that most of the folks on the board thought that God had worked through the modern day "Organization" and I now appreciate that is not the case.

  Regarding your question about when God was using a human organization, I feel that the tenets that Russell taught regarding hell, the soul, the trinity and the ransom show God's spirit operating upon him both to enable his understanding of these matters and spreading this information to others. In my opinion I would say that clearly God used him and his limited organization from the 1870s to about 1913 or so. Additionally I feel that God also used men like Martin Luther, Tyndale, Calvin and others to keep "truth" alive.

  After 1914, the failed prophecy regarding 1914 has caused additional failed prophecies and a grasping at straws of truth with very little new understanding. So if there is an apostacy it occurs after 1914 in my mind.

  Certainly the scriptures you reference prove that God can and does work with individuals. However, it seems to me that he has used groups of individuals to dessimate truth. I realize I am biased in this regard given my enjoyable experiences within the congregation I attend (at least the good outweighs the bad). It seems that the bad that many on this forum have experienced far out weighs the good possibly causing a bias as well.

  Thanks for your thoughts on the matter and I will write more later.

  zarco
• 

  slimboyfat

  http://youtube.com/watch?v=4usbDqUd76I
• 

  drew sagan

  Additionally I feel that God also used men like Martin Luther, Tyndale, Calvin and others to keep "truth" alive.

  And many of those folks held theological ideas quite differant from what you consider 'core' truth.
  
  I know you don't believe what I'm going to write next, but I guess that's how life works.
  
  Those 'core issues' are clouding your mind and keeping you far away from brighter truth and understanding. I know because I went through the same thing. I felt so strongly about these doctrines and held them as my core, but then one day I asked myself "How can I totally accept these doctrines that the WTS teaches without ever even considering the other sides full opinion?"
  
  There was a point where the only research I did on these subjects was to hold up my beliefs that the WT teachings where correct. When I gave up the idea that these teachings HAD to be correct the door was opened.
• 

  TD

  Zarco said:

  I feel that the tenets that Russell taught regarding hell, the soul, the trinity and the ransom show God's spirit operating upon him both to enable his understanding of these matters and spreading this information to others.

  This is somewhat of a tangent, but the evolution of the JW understanding of the ransom is an interesting study in and of itself.

  Most JW's know that Russell split with Barbour over the ransom. The JW publishing entity routinely twists Barbour's position into a rejection of the ransom, when the point of disagreement was actually over it's mechanics. (i.e. Did Christ die for you or in place of you?)

  JW's therefore don't know that today, they are much closer to Barbour's position than they are to Russell's.
• 

  AuldSoul

  zarco: After 1914, the failed prophecy regarding 1914 has caused additional failed prophecies and a grasping at straws of truth with very little new understanding. So if there is an apostacy it occurs after 1914 in my mind.

  zarco: Regarding your question about when God was using a human organization, I feel that the tenets that Russell taught regarding hell, the soul, the trinity and the ransom show God's spirit operating upon him both to enable his understanding of these matters and spreading this information to others.

  I would call the 1914 prophecy "false prophecy" because according to Deuteronomy 18:20-22 that is what failed prophecy is. There is only one kind of prophet that utters false prophecy or prophecy that fails.

  "The World Has Ended—Millions Now Living Will Never Die!" (Revelation—Its Grand Climax at Hand!, 1988, p. 120, par. 3) An outright lie 4 years after the deadline passed, this talk pointed to 1925 as the firmly established final end of times.

  The tenets Russell taught covered a vastly larger array of dogma than just these four doctrines. He wrote voluminously for many years prior to his death. Examine, please, the Divine Plan of the Ages. If having some truth is the mark of God using an organization almost all religions qualify. But, again, you cite that God used individuals. You have sort of blended individuals and organizations together as though they are one and the same.

  zarco: I realize I am biased in this regard given my enjoyable experiences within the congregation I attend (at least the good outweighs the bad).

  The good outweighed the bad for me, too. Until I became free to speak about my difference of perspective. Please consider carefully: Would the good still outweigh the bad if you were completely candid with those you call friends, brothers, and sisters? In my case, that was the point at which the good ceased outweighing the bad.

  But how can they be a friend to you if they don't even know you. You can't maintain integrity—you can't be really true to yourself and express yourself freely—and expect to keep their pleasure. I believe you sense that what I am saying is true.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  wanderlustguy

  To answer the first question...in the options given there wasn't anything close to what I beleive...so here it is.

  Jehovah as defined by the WTBS is as real as the saltine cracker fairy.

  As such...he aint using anybody, if anyone is getting used...it's Jehovah getting used by the organization to produce revenue and a larger production base.

  But...that doesn't mean there isn't spiritual truth...just the opposite. Spiritual truth begins with the realization that no ones knows exactly what the whole story is, period. You can learn everything you need to know about God by walking out in the woods by yourself and just opening yourself up to the experience. I'm also pretty sure "God" definitely wouldn't tell us everything in a book that points in so many different directions you have to defy logic and reason just to get it to make some sort of sense.

  So, in my opinion...all religion has some truth, but the Organization perverts it into something to control people and provide power and money to a few.

  If anyone has The Truth...I doubt it's the janitors and window washers at the hall.

  One more thing...remember the scripture about "he who is faithful in little is faithful in much"? When you find one lie, if you keep digging you will find many more.

  WLG
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  minimus

  If you say that if there's any apostasy it occured after 1914, then you must admit the possibility is there that the "Organization" is "apostate". And as was mentioned, 1914 was a bogus date as was 1913, 1915 and 1916. Actually ALL the dates that the Org. has highlighted are wrong. So for you to want to imagine that Jehovah used a group that clearly was ALWAYS wrong on their "core" which revolved around millenial dates is to deny the truth about the "Truth".