WELL WORTH READING: JW's + 144,000

by stevieb1 15 Replies latest jw friends

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  RR

  Utpotian:

  I tend to agree that since so few have actually "finished" the heavenly race, then the delay in Christ's coming is obvious. However, I have traditionally leaned more towards the belief that the 144,000 were sealed along time ago, or it was just a symbol.

  I don't think it is a matter of the Lord's coming being delayed, it's a matter of the time being God's, not man's. Thus Habukuk tells us, "Thou it seemed to tarry, wait for it, for it shall surely come." We need to keep in mind, that time is nothing to an infinite being, we are running on God's time clock, not ours.

  It has always perplexed me that an intelligent creator would place two spheres of existence before his creatures, both in separate realms or dimensions.

  God's promise to Israel was that He would bless them. He foretold that their seed would possess the gate of their enemies, and they would fill the earth and be the blesser nation.

  He foretold that they would be princes in all the earth, thus they were looking for an earthly hope, and this promise is still theirs. Howeversands on the shore [earthly class] and the stars in heaven [heavenly class]. Thus Israel were to be number one. However, they miss the boat when they rejected Jesus as their promise Messiah, thus they lost out on the exclusive rights in the kingdom. Instead of being princes on the earth AND Kings and priest in Heaven, they had to share it with the Gentiles.

  Thus the Scriptures do speak of two salvations, however, we, living in what is called the Gospel Age, know that in ALL the New Testament writings, there is ONLY ONE call, and that call is for entrance into the Little Flock, the Bride of Christ, A HEAVENLY CLASS. God is not concerned with any other people but the Church, however, that being said, he is still dealing with the nation of Israel. As there are many yet unfulfilled prophecies, that no matter how the Watchtower twist the scriptures, can ONLY be fulfilled in Natural Israel and NOT Spiritual Israel.

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  Religion is man's attempt to reach God,
  Jesus is God's attempt to reach man.
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  RR

  Hillary

  For example, the 12 tribes from which the 144,000 are chosen are listed with Judah at the head ( the tribe from which Christ descended ) rather than Reuben as in the rest of the OT listings and Dan of course was replaced by Manasseh, due to his reputation for faithlessness, indicating that something more than literalism was taking place here.

  It's my thought that the twelve tribes mantioned are not so muchg literal tribes, but represent character. Each of the persons mentioned all had their own distinct characteristics that made them unique.

  I believe that the Lord will choose people from among the earth is represent these twelve characteristics.

  ____________________________
  Religion is man's attempt to reach God,
  Jesus is God's attempt to reach man.
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  RR

  Individual

  it would appear to me that the 144,000 represented the original Jewish nation and the great crowd out of all the nations is representative of the Gentiles.

  This is a view held by many professing Christians, that teh 144,000 are literal Jews, they believe in the end these will convert to Christianity and that they will convert a great crowd, AFTER the True Church has been raptured.

  However, as mentioned before, Revelation 14 also speaks of 144,000, and these can be seen are the Church, Christians. Are these the same or two different groups?

  The fact that the tribes mentioned are not the original, leads me to believe the tribes are symbolic of something else. However, lately I have been tpying with the idea of their being two classes of 144,000 in the Kingdon, the Jewish tribes as princes in the earth, and the heavenly tribe as the Kings and priest OVER the earth.

  ____________________________
  Religion is man's attempt to reach God,
  Jesus is God's attempt to reach man.
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  RR

  Cosmo:

  I'm sorry if I'm not up to speed with the way JW's think, but can someone explain why Jesus needs anyone else to help him govern?

  Because that is teh way Jehovah planned it! The Scriptures are clear that the Church would be a ruling class in the Kingdom.

  The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:16,17)

  To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3:21)

  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we will also live with him: If we suffer, we will also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (2 Timothy 2:11,12)

  ____________________________
  Religion is man's attempt to reach God,
  Jesus is God's attempt to reach man.
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  Nausea

  I'd like to interject that perhaps as mentioned earlier in this thread that the Jews mentioned to be the 144,000 might be the 'Messianic Jews' of today. These are the Jewish people that, while still adhering to the laws and customs of the OT, do accept Christ as the messiah and follow the NT as well. There is a group of Jews now attempting to re-construct the temple in Jerusalem... the last attempt to start was just yesterday (Oct 4th) and there have been several other attempts that have been canceled out of fear from Muslim backlash. See http://www.templemountfaithful.org/ Many Christians believe that the OT has been fulfilled and it's laws are somewhat muted by the new convenant, but this is not entirely true; for example, some of Daniels's prophechies run along the same time-frame as those in Revelation (yet unfulfilled) and the Messianic Jews are right in believing that the old convenant(s) are still active. Of course, the society has been very quiet on this topic... to the point that I'm a bit surprised that they rarely mention details of the 3rd temple. I bring this up because as far as I can discern, the 3rd temple (and most likely an Isreal/Palestine peace treaty) must be completed before the sealing of the 144,000 occurs. Also note there appears to be a discrepency in the choice of wording in the NWT at Rev 14. The actual Greek work should have been translated 'upon', not above. BTW, I've greatly enjoyed this message forum for quite some time, but have never posted to it before... take it easy on me :)
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  justhuman

  There are many thinks that shows that the great multitude are in heavens. Specially when you read the Greek Bible(not the NWT that is not a translation) and I really don't understand how can the WT society made 21.000 Greeks to believe that they on earth.

  The following scriptures show that they are in heaven:
  Rev. 1:4 The Sprits are in before of the throne(ENOPION TOU THRONOY)
  Rev. 4:5 Lamps in before of the throne(ENOPION TOU THRONOU)
  Rev. 4:10 Elders before the throne (ENOPION TOU THRONOU)
  Rev. 7:11 Elders four beasts before the throne (ENOPION TOU THRONOU)
  Rev. 7:15, 8:3, 9:13, 11:16 14:3-5, same thought before the throne

  Rev.6:9-11 White robes( LEFKES STOLES a uniform for priest or for temple service)was given to everyone of them.
  Rev.7:9-15 Great Multitude wearing white robes(LEFKES STOLES)are in the temple(NAOS-the inner of the temple)standing before God(ENOPION THEOY)and they serve Him.See for temple also Math. 21:12, Mark 11:15

  Rev 11: 1-2 To measure the temple(Naos) and those who worship in it but the court without the temple measure not it is given to Gentiles

  Rev. 19:1 Great voice of Multitude IN HEAVEN