by Gill 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
The character of Jesus Christ, was a reincarnated character in that he had to be reborn as another creature in the true sense of reincarnation.
John the Baptist was spoken of as Elijah come again.
When Jesus had to deal with the disabled young man, he asked who had sinned, the parents of the baby. Presumably the child had sinned in a former life.
So, do you also think that reincarnation is a theme that is often missed in the Bible?
The notion with John the Baptist is similar but different, since Elijah was not believed to have died in Elijah redivivus tradition...he was taken up to heaven like Enoch and would return as one of the witnesses of the eschaton (cf. Elijah and Enoch returning in the Animal Apocalypse of 1 Enoch, and Elijah and Moses returning in the Transfiguration episode in the synoptic gospels and in ch. 11 of Revelation). The eschatological expectation may have included a component in which Elijah is re-embodied (e.g. born anew), but this re-embodiment is not a reincarnation that follows a person's death. Or the expectation may have been that Elijah would be revealed from heaven already embodied like a man, cf. the "one like a son of man" in Daniel 7.
The gnostics held a belief of reincarnation.
The belief was dropped after an empereor (I believe it was Justinian) began to persecute those who followed Origen's interpretations of the scriptures.
Leolaia - Do you think though, that they actually believed that Elijah had been alive for all of those hundreds of years? They would have been aware that John the Baptist had been born, lived as a child and grown.
The character of Jesus Christ, was a reincarnated character in that he had to be reborn as another creature in the true sense of reincarnation.
I think this depends on what you believe about Christ's nature. If you believe he's God incarnate, then technically he wasn't reincarnated firstly because as God, he wasn't created and secondly, his nature as God didn't change, he just took on human flesh.
On the other hand, if you believe he pre-existed as an angel, then in a way there was a reincarnation.
John the Baptist was spoken of as Elijah come again.
This brings in another question for me, does one have to physically die in order to be reincarnated? Elijah just disappeared, it was his spirit that returned.
When Jesus had to deal with the disabled young man, he asked who had sinned, the parents of the baby. Presumably the child had sinned in a former life.
No, Jesus said that neither had sinned, he was born blind so that God's glory might be displayed through him
So, do you also think that reincarnation is a theme that is often missed in the Bible?
Possibly, if it means that the spirit/ego/being is recycled rather than the body. But are there enough examples? You could say that Jesus and Elijah/John the Baptist were unique 'occurences' which happened to fulfil specific missions for God.
Just my initial thoughts, I'll see what others say!
I think that the Jesus character was based on the sun. He shares many similarities with other Christ figures before him, which are entirely modeled on the sun, going down and coming back up again. He is our 'risen savior', without him, no life eternal on earth. Check out Malachai 4:2 - The SUN of righteousness shall arise with healing in HIS wings.
Regarding the pericope in John 9, again I don't think reincarnation is implicit in light of the Jewish background. Rather, the rabbinical stance on sins before birth concerned a child's prenatal life. This possibility was occasioned by the episode in Genesis 25:22, which some rabbis interpreted as involving one fetus (Esau) trying to kill the other one (Jacob) (cf. Genesis Rabbah 63). In part this was allied with a quasi-predestination view of the wicked, that they are created wicked and thus sin even in the womb; this is how the same rabbis interpreted Psalm 58:4. The Hellenistic Jewish (i.e. influenced by Alexandrian Platonism) take on this was that some souls are good and some are evil, and those who are evil sin from the day they are incarnated: "As a child I was by nature well endowed, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body" (Wisdom 8:19-20). Since Wisdom was a likely influence on John, this might be closer to the meaning in John 9. This is also closely related to the gnostic idea that some people possess the divine spark, whereas others do not and are molded by the demiurge (cf. the Johannine notion that Jesus' opponents are children of the Devil).
So what do you think of Job 33:29
Words to the effect that people are continually brought back from the 'pit' to learn their lessons?
Leolaia - Do you think though, that they actually believed that Elijah had been alive for all of those hundreds of years?
Yes, absolutely, that was what was commonly believed in the Second Temple period about both Enoch and Elijah.
They would have been aware that John the Baptist had been born, lived as a child and grown.
Right, but as I said, nothing would preclude the idea that the heavenly Elijah (who had never died) could be reborn. One of the Jewish-Christian gospels claimed that Mary of Nazareth was really the archangel Michael incarnated. Similarly, views on the preexistence of Jesus would similarly involve a heavenly Jesus experiencing birth despite his previous experience. One should also compare the claim in some of the revelatory literature (I think it was 2 Enoch) that when Enoch was taken up into heaven, he was extracted from his earthly clothes (e.g. his body of flesh) and given heavenly clothes, thereby permitting a scenario in which he is re-embodied in the flesh.
Thanks Leolai - However reincarnation is part of the ancient Jewish mystical beliefs as set out in the Kaballah.
Zoha 1 186b and Zohar 11 99b both refer to reincarnation.
Job is quite resolute on there being no hope of life after one dies (cf. especially ch. 14, I had a detailed series of posts on this a year ago). The context of ch. 33 shows that what is being discussed is rescue from death, "to preserve his soul from the Pit, his life from perishing by the sword" (v. 18); the language in v. 25 is not re-embodiment as an actual child but that one's wretched flesh (v. 21) is rejuvenated to youthlike health (cf. the torments suffered by Job that underlie this passage).
