I was talking to this JW's elder who I believe has to be the best debater against the "Trinity" doctrine that JW's have He brought up several point which I feel needs to be addressed by Trinitarians. First of all he argured that Acts 5:3-4 about lying to the Holy Spirit in no way makes the Holy Spirit a person any more that "lying to the truth" in James makes "truth" a person. I have never seen that verse before about lying to the truth. Also he brought up the fact that Jehovah said he would take away his "Spirit" from Moses and divide it upon 70 elders. How could Jehovah take away and "divide" the Holy Spirit upon 70 people? You can't divide a person and place it upon another person. The prodical son says that he "sinned" against "heaven" would this make "heaven" a person since you can only "sin" against Jehovah. Is "heaven" a person of the trinity? The bible says that Jesus "rebuked" the ocean. Only a person can be "rebuked". Christians are said to be "baptized into Jesus" and "baptized into his death". But Matthew 28 says we are baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is a person because we are "baptized" into it then "Death" is also a person because we are baptized into it. When Christians argue that to "grieve" the Holy Spirit makes the Spirit a person do they feel that When the bible says Jehovah's "Heart" is rejoicing does this mean that Jehovah has a human organ and that it is feeling joy? All this the JW's elder was showing how the bible is full of metophores, personifications, figuretive language, etc;
"Trinitarians" how can you "lie" to the truth? Is truth a person?
by booker-t 30 Replies latest jw friends
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Zico
Some good points, although I will point out that Jesus said that he was 'The way, and the truth, and the life' Which would indicate that, yes, the truth was a person, because the truth was Jesus.
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sir82
It is common trap (not just among JWs) to think that the Bible comprises a "harmonious whole", that all of the Bible writers were (or would have been) in complete agreement with each other. This leads to highly stretched "mental gymnastics" and contortions, trying to make sure that none of the hundreds of thousands of verses ever contradict one another (when in numerous cases, they clearly do).
Different authors of the various bible books had different ideas on the nature of God, the nature of Jesus, and the nature of the holy spirit. The ideas shifted over time as well.
For John, Jesus was virtually indistinguishable from the Father - it was virtually impossible for a human to see the "dividing line" where the Father "ended" and the Son "began".
For Mark, written decades earlier, Jesus was the Son, period.
Paul had different ideas. Luke had different ideas. Matthew had different ideas. Similar, but still fundamentally different in numerous areas.
Same principle for ideas on the holy spirit.... the "holy spirit" was thought to be something far different for the writer of Genesis vs. the writer of 1 & 2 Samuel vs. the writer of Acts.
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Shazard
>I have never seen that verse before about lying to the truth. Jesus Christ IS the truth. So yes, when truth becomes incarnate, it is person and it is Jesus Christ >Also he brought up the fact that Jehovah said he would take away his "Spirit" from Moses and divide it upon 70 elders. How >could Jehovah take away and "divide" the Holy Spirit upon 70 people? You can't divide a person and place it upon another >person. Why not? Do we have some common definition of term "person" so it includes restriction such as it can't be divided. Read Job 10:10 In other words I see that your elder friend has some "Person" definition which he is only aware off and then tries to do something. Actually if something is person should be decided by context, not by grammer. Grammer does not tells it. Very clear idioms as "sin against heaven" can't be deconstructed into words, as idiom by definition consists of different words which by themselves does not carry the meaning in the idiom. So "sin against Heaven" exactly means - to Sin against God! Against laws which comes from heaven. I can sin against my brother, and still it does not makes him God.
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sir82
Very clear idioms as "sin against heaven" can't be deconstructed into words, as idiom by definition consists of different words which by themselves does not carry the meaning in the idiom. So "sin against Heaven" exactly means - to Sin against God!
Jesus Christ IS the truth. So yes, when truth becomes incarnate, it is person and it is Jesus Christ
Exhibit A of "mental gymnastics and contortions".
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Satanus
When i was a christian, i could easily see how jesus was god. However, i never got into the subject of the holy spirit. I think that jesus=god is a little harder for them to argue against, seeing how john1:1 puts it. If you understand what that verse is saying, the wt arguer doesn't stand much of a chance.
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booker-t
I totally agree with Sir82. Trinitarians read everything with "Jesus is God" eyes. Their "mental gymnastics" is amazing. Nowhere does James state that "the truth" is Jesus Christ. So to try and wiggle out of "lying to the truth" and make it Jesus is ridiculous. James would have said lying to Jesus. Everytime Trinitarians see a "title" or an act that Jehovah has or does and it is applied to Jesus they right away "shout" Jesus is Jehovah. But when you show them another verse where a title or act is applied to Jehovah and Moses or David or another servant of Jehovah they "back-peddal" and say it does not mean Moses or David is Jehovah. Why is it that Trinitarians can bend and decide the rules of which titles and acts can make Jesus God but not make Moses or others God?
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XJW4EVR
Let's look at this simply. If the writers of the New Testament were Arian, then what would we expect to find in the New Testament? Primarily, we would find words and terms that indicate and affrim the Arian position. Are these sorts of terms or words found in the New Testament, and I am referring to a New Testament that is accepted by most scholars, such as the NIV, NASB or ASV? On the other hand, if the New Testament writers intended a Trinitarian reading of their work, then what sort of wording and terminology would we expect to find?
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Apostate Kate
I am not personally into labels, although I do agree with the discription of the Godhead that the Trinity allows. Trinitarians do not believe the the Holy Ghost/Spirit is merely a person.
...she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Mt. 1:18 Do Trinitarians believe God came down and had sex with Mary? No.
...he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost... Mt 3:11 Do Trinitarians believe that we would be baptised with a person with us? No. The Spirit of God (presence of), yes. Active force no.
St Augustine "In no other subject is the danger of erring so great, or the progress so difficult, or the fruit of a careful study so appreciable".
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Holy Ghost
I am not Catholic but they have kept and preserved church writings and history. There is no evidence that the Holy Ghost is some kind of Star Wars active force. If every instance it was spoken of as being a "force" that would be evident.
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost...Mr 12:36 ...As if he was possesed by God. An active force has no mind nor could it posses a man.
...for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Mr 13:11 Possesion again.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter...this passage calls the Holy Ghost many things, teacher etc...the thing is that God is more than the Watchtower wants Him to be. He loves more, forgives more, is smarter than, in control of much more than they give God credit for.
They continually assault the Godhead so they can place themselves in His place. The Holy Ghost is God, can posses a person, can be everywhere at once, is God, is a person but not like a human.
...and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia Acts 16:6 How could an active force without a mind do that?
Acts 20:28 is one of my favorite verses. It shows the blood of Christ as being God's own blood, and the Holy Spirit putting them in where they were.
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Apostate Kate
First of all he argured that Acts 5:3-4 about lying to the Holy Spirit in no way makes the Holy Spirit a person any more that "lying to the truth" in James makes "truth" a person.
Again they use something out of context to try to prove thier point. James uses the word "truth" 3 times in his letter; 1:18, 3:14, 5:19. 5:19 the one about not lying to the truth. The word "aletheia" is simply "truth." It is a stretch of the imagination to apply this usage to discount that the Holy Ghost is nothing more than an actrive force.
If the characteristics/nature of "truth" was more than aletheia, I'd say ok, lets check this out. The characteristics/nature of the Holy Ghost are the same as that of God, they share the same capabilities; all knowing, omniscient, omnipotent etc.
So to equate "lie to the truth", as "lie to the Holy Ghost", truth would have to share the same nature in some way to even begin to make that comparision.