What is the general concensus about the other sheep Jesus mentioned? Were they the gentiles?
Who are the 'other sheep?'
by White Dove 22 Replies latest jw friends
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ajwnm
Yes. Gentiles.
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blondie
I take it White Dove that you are not a JW or an ex-JW. You might check any threads that mention the great crowd that have been discussed recently. Welcome. Blondie
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greendawn
Most Christians believe that the other sheep are the gentiles that were soon to begin to be gathered in the Christian church. That is the most natural and correct explanation. What is certain Jesus was not refering to members of a dodgy and shifty religion that was to appear 1 900 years later. The JWs a group that appeared very recently in history must be very arrogant to say that Jesus was predicting about them nearly 2 000 years ago.
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Farkel
The "other sheep" in its most recent incarnation by Joe Rutherford (and to this date) were a second-class group of people who needed the "annointed' in order to get salvation. In fact, the "other sheep" were not part of the New Covenant that Jesus mentioned. In fact, the "ransom" of Jesus did not and does not apply to the "other sheep", but only to the "anointed remnant". Note this wacky WTS doctrine: Jesus offered NO ransom for the "other sheep," yet the Bible said he offered it for all sinners, not just WT elitists.
In fact, the "other sheep" are totally screwed UNLESS they somehow "associate" themselves with the "annointed" and get the "benefit' of those goodies that only the "annointed" were given by Christ.
WT leaders scream about the "Caste System" of the Catholic Church, yet they are the ones with the ultimate Caste System: those who Jesus loves and the rest are dirtbags if they don't do what those who say they must do because only THEY are the ones that Jesus loves (with no proof whatsoever). Of course, the WT elitists made up all this stuff. The poor old "other sheep" didn't make it up. It was stuffed down their throats by those who made it up and who benefited by it.
Farkel
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stillajwexelder
The other sheep are 2nd class citizens
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IP_SEC
If you just quote 10:16 ad nauseum then the OS can be whom ever you please.
If you read all of 9 and 10 then yes... no escaping it, they are them hook nosed gentitalia that the jooish god hated soo much.
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AGuest
May you have peace!
The "other sheep" are anyone who is not a Jew by bloodline (i.e, not from the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah, made up of Judah and Benjamin). They DO include those from Israel, however (i.e., the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel; i.e., the Samaritans), as well as folks from EVERY nation, tribe, tongue and people.
The Jews were called a "little flock" by my Lord because generally only a few of them put their faith in him; the vast majority rejected him. The reason for the "other" sheep is that initially, ALL of Israel was to be God's chosen people; not because they did anything special, but because God made a promise to Abraham. However, long before the Jews rejected God, the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel, under Jeroboam, rejected him (Jeroboam rejected worship at Jerusalem and installation of priests chosen by holy spirit; instead, he chose priests from among any he wanted and set up worship at "Bethel," which, by the way, became "a center for false worship." Things that make you go "hmmmm...").
Anyway, because of the Jews general rejection of Christ, God, through Christ, turned His attention to the Samaritans (Israel) and then to the "nations" to complete His "house," to take out of THEM "a people for His name." He did not forget His promise to Abraham, however, and as a result set aside 144,000 places ("from among the sons of Israel) in His "house" for Abraham's seed.
Together, this little flock of Jews (which number only 24,000 and NOT 144,000: 12,000 from Judah and 12,000 from Benjamin) ALONG WITH the "other sheep" (the remaining 120,000 PLUS "a great crowd which NO man is able to number)... become ONE FLOCK (did not the Christ say this very thing?!) and make up "a kingdom of kings AND priests". As such, they ALL "render sacred service"... day AND night... in God's temple. The "other sheep/great crowd" are NOT abstractly in sight of God's throne; they are in fact BEFORE the throne and thus in the spirit realm along with the 144,000.
However, NONE of these, whether of the 144,000, Abraham's seed, great crowd, tribe of Naphtali, whathaveyou... are RESTRICTED to the spirit realm, as falsely taught by the WTBTS and others. They "have pasturage" and GO IN AND OUT... just as spirit beings have always done (save those "bound" and restricted from doing so).
John was only shown the first group (144,000) separately because they were Abraham's seed and God intended to show that His promise to Abraham had not been forgotten as some had believed but was indeed fulfilled.
So, yes, the other sheep are the "Gentiles" (i.e., anyone who is not a Jew by blood/tribe, including those from 10 of the tribes of Israel). What is most interesting is that MOST of those who claim to be Jews today... are not. At least, they are not Jews by blood. Indeed, there is more of Abraham and Jacob's blood in folks who don't even know it than there is in those who profess it. The chronicling of the bloodline was lost with the final destruction of the temple, after which anyone could pretty much claim to be a Jew by virtue of simply being circumcised (for men) or marriage to/relations with/children by a Jew (for women). If most could trace their bloodline, they would fine that they are Jews only because an ancestor laid claim to such designation, and not because they possess Abraham's blood.
The GOOD news, however, is the the Most Holy One of Israel, the One whose name is JAH of Armies, the very God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, knows EXACTLY who in the earth carries Abraham's blood (and only a drop qualifies!). He does not need written chronologies or records keep by priests, etc. This is because our blood actually speaks, in a spiritual sense (that is how God "heard" Abel's blood crying out), and, currently, the life of earthling man... is in the blood. That is why we cannot hide from God; even if we were silent, our blood would speak and reveal us.
Again, I wish you peace!
Servant to the Household of God, Israel, daughter of Bin-JAH-min (Benjamin), and slave of Christ, to time indefinite,
SJ
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Qcmbr
An alternative view from the LDS world:
Term used by the Savior to describe members of the house of Israel, such as the Nephites and the lost tribes of Israel, who were scattered or separated from their brethren in the Holy Land (3 Ne. 15:15-21; 16:1-3; 17:4). During his mortal ministry Christ referred to himself as the Good Shepherd and the house of Israel as his sheep (John 10:11, 14). Continuing the metaphor, he explained to the Jews in the eastern hemisphere that he had "other sheep . . . which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" (John 10:16). Because of "stiffneckedness and unbelief" among the Jews they did not understand Jesus' words (3 Ne. 15:18), and they mistakenly assumed that the "other sheep" to which Jesus referred were the Gentiles (3 Ne. 15:21-22). During his ministry among the Nephites, however, the resurrected Savior revealed that they, as well as other Israelites not living in the Holy Land, were his "other sheep" who were to hear his voice and be part of his fold (3 Ne. 15:15-17, 21; 16:1-3). He also clarified that he would not manifest himself to the Gentiles through a personal ministry but that the Gentiles would learn of Jesus through the preaching of the Jews and the witness of the Holy Ghost (3 Ne. 15:22-23; cf. Matt. 10:5-6; 15:24).
Some biblical evidence if not for the Mormon story but at least for the hypothesise that the 'other sheep' where the rest of the Israelites and not the Gentiles.
Ezek 34
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek ....
11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, [even] I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep [that are] scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
Ezek 37:16
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:
Luke 15:4
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Matt 15
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. -
AGuest
May you have peace!
Unfortunately, like “the Bible,” the Book of Mormon is not always accurate; indeed, “the law written on [any] tablet” is fallible, save that written by God’s spirit on stone. In addition, the "understandings" of what is written and meant in both is even more unreliable. I offer:
“Term used by the Savior to describe members of the house of Israel, such as the Nephites and the lost tribes of Israel, who were scattered or separated from their brethren in the Holy Land (3 Ne. 15:15-21; 16:1-3; 17:4).
This is true as to non-Jewish Israel, those of the 10-tribe kingdom, the Samaritans. I will speak as to “Nephites” below.
“Continuing the metaphor, he explained to the Jews in the eastern hemisphere that he had "other sheep . . . which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" (John 10:16).
This is true.
Because of "stiffneckedness and unbelief" among the Jews they did not understand Jesus' words (3 Ne. 15:18), and they mistakenly assumed that the "other sheep" to which Jesus referred were the Gentiles (3 Ne. 15:21-22).
Here is where the inaccuracy in the teaching begins:
Jews… are those from the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah, Judah and Benjamin. Although some lived as far away as Greece, Corinth, Rome, Ethiopia, and further, their base land was Judaea, with its capital city of Jerusalem. Many, therefore, sojourned from distant lands to Jerusalem to worship at the temple there. (Act 8:27) Those of Benjamin are considered Jews by reason of their descendants having joined with Judah for strength after almost being wiped out for heinous crimes against the concubine of a certain Levite sojourner. David was a Jew, and so was my Lord in the flesh, both descending from Israel (Jacob) directly through his fourth son by Leah, Judah.
A “Gentile” is anyone who is not a Jew (i.e, not from Judah or Benjamin). Therefore, anyone descended from Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Naphtali, Dan, Issachar, Gad, Asher, Zebulun or Joseph (i.e, Ephraim and Manasseh)… is a “Gentile.” In addition, the non-Israelite “nations” (which would include those who call themselves "Nephites") are also Gentiles.
During his ministry among the Nephites, however, the resurrected Savior revealed that they, as well as other Israelites not living in the Holy Land, were his "other sheep" who were to hear his voice and be part of his fold (3 Ne. 15:15-17, 21; 16:1-3).
Although it is interesting that among all the nations this teaching presumes that only Nephites are chosen to be joined to Israel, it is still the truth that both Nephites and “other Israelites” would be Gentiles, for neither are Jews. Nephites would be of “the nations” as they are not Israelites.
“He also clarified that he would not manifest himself to the Gentiles through a personal ministry but that the Gentiles would learn of Jesus through the preaching of the Jews and the witness of the Holy Ghost (3 Ne. 15:22-23; cf. Matt. 10:5-6; 15:24).”
Again, the truth is distorted. At Matthew 10:5,6 and 15:24, my Lord is recorded to have said that only the "lost" sheep of Israel was to be searched out, that he was sent only to that House. Thus, he initially rejected the pleas of a Canaanite woman to help her daughter. But such “lost" sheep referred only to the JEWS… and not to all of Israel:
“Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.” – John 4:2
The teaching that “Jews” are “all Israel” is a mistake because, again, Jews… are only those from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Thus, the “lost sheep” that my Lord is recorded to have spoken of are those JEWS who had abandoned true worship… and not the other 10-tribes or the nations. His task was to call them, first.
“Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” – Matthew 23:34-38
His words were directed to Jerusalem, the mainstay of the JEWS and those who worshipped with them. The other 10 tribes did not worship in Jerusalem, as indicated by the words exchanged between the Samaritan (and thus, non-Jewish Israelite) woman and my Lord at Jacob's well:
"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."
Here, contrary to the inaccurate teaching that the woman was speaking of her ancestors, she was saying that their forefathers, hers AND Christ's, by reason of the common descendency from Jacob (Israel), worshipped in the mountain (which was true, until Solomon built the temple at Jerusalem). Once the temple was built, however, the tribes divided and the king of Israel, Jeroboam, continued worship in the mountains (at Bethel, the base city of Samaria), versus the Jews, who worshipped at the temple in Jerusalem. It was this worship at Bethel that first became "false," causing the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel to earn the name "Oholah." "Oholah" never turned away from her false worship; Jerusalem's false worship, which caused her to earn the name "Oholibah," waxed and waned: the Jews would repent and turn around, only to turn back to false worship again and again, culminating in their rejection virtually in whole of the king God sent to them, His Christ.
But my Lord came to call the Jews first, and then use them to call the remainder of Israel… and the nations. This one of the reasons why Paul, a Jew, was an "apostle... to the nations."
The “lost sheep,” however, are NOT the "other" sheep. Indeed, the very reason that my Lord referred to the Jews as a “little flock” is BECAUSE most of them had "abandoned" or "wandered away" from TRUE worship, becoming “lost,” thus decreasing the group itself (although Abraham's seed was chosen, it was David’s seed, Judah, that was to sit on God’s throne, forever; it was through Judah, the Jews, that salvation was to come). My Lord, thus, was sent to “gather” them… but they did not want it.
He knew this, however, for it was prophesied beforehand, and so he told those that were “found” not to despair because they WOULD become a large flock, by means of the OTHER sheep… from among non-Jewish Israel… and the nations… that would be joined to them.
Some biblical evidence if not for the Mormon story but at least for the hypothesise that the 'other sheep' where the rest of the Israelites and not the Gentiles.
The “biblical evidence” contradicts the “Mormon story.” Which to put faith in? Neither, for they are mere records, of which the false styluses of the scribes has worked in sheer falsehood. Thus, we are not to put our faith in that which is seen [with eyes of flesh], including fallible, contradictory and unreliable writings; rather, we are to put our faith in things unseen [by eyes of flesh], including the invisible Spirit, the One unseen about whom both of these compilation claim to bear witness to, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Son and Christ of the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. He is the Truth, the Faithful and TRUE Witness, so that all that comes from him is indeed true... and fully reliable.
May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Most Holy One of Israel and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob... and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, be upon you... if you so wish it.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ