The CATHOLIC doctrine of the Faithful and Discreet Slave??? Yes!!

by Terry 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry
    The NT canon was chosen from among hundreds (thousands?) of letters and other writings that had been circulating in the early congregations for years. The Catholic church decided which to call 'inspired' and include in the Holy Bible. Someone had to do it, right?

    It always (well, not always) struck me as peculiar, odd, or illogical that the men who canonized the bible as it now is are just dandy for that particular task in the eyes of Protestants, yet; the very same men constitute the Catholic foe in matters of orthodoxy in theology.

    The very idea or monolithic concept of THE BIBLE was sooooo very different to the First Century Christians. Our today's Bible would be astonishing claptrap to them I imagine.

    Nobody seems to find it aberrant that Jesus NEVER WROTE WORD ONE although Muhammed (supposedly illiterate) could write the very words of God Almighty in perfect Arabic.

    Islam has a better "bible", in my opinion, than Christianity.

  • aikichristian
    aikichristian

    AikiChristian, I'd just like to add my personal view on the scriptures you cited.

    Luke 10:16: "The one listening to you listens to me, and the one rejecting you rejects me" is very interesting in that it is speaking about "seventy others" (not apostles, but 'ordinary' disciples) - see verse 1.

    Romans 13:1-2: This is talking about the Roman government to whom the people would be paying taxes (see verse 6). It is not talking about Christian 'authority'. The writer is dealing specifically with agents of the state.

    Matthew 28:18-20: Here Jesus says that "all authority" was given to him. His disciples were merely to teach others all the things he had commanded them, rather than wielding authority over them.

    Ephesians 2:19-20: The "cornerstone" is Jesus and the foundation is the "apostles and prophets". The apostles were those who were directly appointed by Jesus, the only exception being Judas' replacement. The foundational teaching that they laid down should therefore have remained unchanged. There is no scriptural proof that I am aware of that more apostles were appointed at later dates, thus carrying on some special authority that would ultimately result in a single 'supreme' representative of Jesus on earth.

    Deuteronomy 17:8-12: This scripture relates specifically, of course, to the nation of Israel with a special system of worship and way of life. If one wishes to use this as a principle for Christian 'authority' then one is free to do so, but such is simply a personal interpretation and cannot be tagged on as an addition to New Testament teaching.

    Lk 10:16 does indeed reference 72 "appointed" (key word). The importance of their position and their authority to teach is emphasized in verse 16. So, the idea of people appointed to teach is clearly expressed here. It is also inline with the Church's position on its authority to teach Christ's teachings to others. Christ may have appointed 72 "others" but he also sent out his apostles, who were also certified to teach.

    Matt 10:18-20 does say that all authority was given to Christ. However, Christ appoints his apostles and gives them the authority to teach all that He had commanded. The Church as an unbroken lineage of pope's and hierachigal structure which stretches back to Peter, the ONLY apostle with the "keys to heaven", which symbolize authority (Matt 16:19, Rev 3:7) as the supreme steward to the master's house (Isaiah 22:22). If anybody comes close to the structure, its the Catholic Church, and it can prove it more than any other Christian denomination, esp. Post-Reformation ones.

    Eph 2:19-20 the Church has had this belief all along. Christ is the cornerstone and the foundation is the apostles. It stems from Christ's earlier statement of "on this rock I will build my church". The struture of Christ's Church is consistent thus far in the NT. Not to continue the lineage of appointed teachers with the authority to teach all the Christ had commanded would allow the Church to dissolve as it spread over time and geography. The Church really didn't begin to seriously split until the Protestant Reformation. And the Protestants didn't reform any doctrine of the Church, they just broke off.....from the only institution which could even come historically close to Apostolic times and its lineage. I'll post Scriptural references in my next post.

    Deut 17:8-12 is just to show that such a structure is nothing new. It also showed how unified the whole thing was, until the Protestant Reformation. Everything was a hierarchy, even our relationship to God, the Protestants ended democratizing the whole thing and fragmenting Christianity against itself.

    Why wasn't my 1 Tim Scripture passage responded to?

    Its 2:02AM.....good night!

  • aikichristian
    aikichristian
    I disagree with the statement that the Catholic church predates the Bible. One could only accept that hypothesis if one accepts the church's doctrine of "apostolic succession." And most historians date the start of the church at a much later time when the "popes" began to assert their primacy. We should not confuse the church in Rome during the apostles' time with what later became a grab at supremacy over the other Christian churches. We should not forget that the various books of the Christian Scriptures were well circulated and accepted as authentic by many Christian churches well before a council was formed to decide which ones were to be included in the collection we now call the New Testament. It was this fact that helped in making the decision of the authenticity of the various books by the members of the council.

    It is not a statement, it is historical fact. The Church does predate the Bible because it canonized and organized it! The texts did exist prior to the Bible, but the Bible itself is younger than the Church by approximately 300 years. It was like building a car, all the parts were there, but the Church put it all together.

    "Most" historians do not date the start of the Church at the time where the popes asserted their primacy. If one is asserting their primacy, they existed before then, during a time where they could not assert it (early Christian Persecutions). The "grab for supremacy" really didn't happen as such. Christianity gained its most solid foothold with Charlamagne in 800AD (wiki) and gained tolerance under Constantine I (313AD) prior to that. The Church started to struggle with princes in the Holy Roman Empire in the 15th century. The Treaties of Wesphalia and Utrecht, helped shake loose this "power grab".One cannot document an institution's "rise to power" as its starting point. That would like saying, "Well, Alishia Keys wasn't a singer until she won a Grammy." - ridiculous.

    Apostolic Succession has more to do with the teaching authority of the Church even though it is supported by history.

  • gumb
    gumb

    AkiChristian, sorry I missed that scripture, so here goes.

    1 Timothy 3:15 talks about the 'church' of Christ, but in all the years that I have studied the Bible it is clear to me that this means the collective body of Christians, not some spiritual 'mother' figure comprising of a supreme leader and priesthood. Remember the 'faithful slave' served God's household (i.e. fellow Christians), it was not a form of authority over the flock. I've explained previously why I think the Catholic Church cannot be trusted, but from your response it is clear to me that you are firmly committed to your religion. So, we will just have to agree to disagree.

  • sir82
    sir82

    I firmly believe that if the WTS doesn't implode first, it will be virtually indistinguishable from Roman Catholicism in a few hundred years. The nomenclature will be different, but it will be functionally identical. The current parallels are astonishing, as is!

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