What would it take?

by cynicus 15 Replies latest jw friends

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  cynicus

  In view of the JW reactions on items such as the NGO thing, harbouring child molesters, it made me wonder about what it would take for the average JW to really grasp that the GB, the Org and lots of its doctrine is not what it claims to be.

  Personally I've experienced that after a longwinded argument with an elder about the validity of the 1914 doctrine, he eventually agreed that it wasn't as solid as he thought and that it could be incorrect. Did he see the light (or its absence)? Interestingly enough, he immediately added that even if all this were true/untrue, it would not invalidate his loyalty to the Org & GB. After all they were only humans. Yech!

  This reminded me of the apparently unlimited credit that fundamentalist leadership in general seems to have. It doesn't matter to the adherents what their leadership or their organisation is accused of, and it even doesn't matter whether such accusations are true or not. It doesn't matter if millions were stolen, thousands of people were killed, if innocents got convicted.

  Interestingly enough it seems that only direct personal experience has the power of disrupting this. In my own case this happened, when I was repeatedly confronted with the blood issue since my wife cannot give birth in the regular way, and caesareans were compulsory. It felt so wrong inside when we signed the statements that we took full responsability for our decisions and their possible consequences whereas inside all of our conscience was screaming that we did NOT want to do this. I've read many a story here that shows the same: being in the org, some for a very long time, and only after personal confrontation with a particular issue, the scale is tipped.

  Therefore I think that no issue raised can influence the loyalty of JWs to the GB & the Org on a large scale. Even if the GB, Bethel brass, or just local elders, would be catched with their pants down, in either moral, financial, legal, or any other wrongdoing, it doesn't really make a difference.
• 

  sweetone2377

  "Interestingly enough, he immediately added that even if all this were true/untrue, it would not invalidate his loyalty to the Org & GB. After all they were only humans. "
  Yet the Bible teaches that we are to follow no man....so sad.

  "Even if the GB, Bethel brass, or just local elders, would be catched with their pants down, in either moral, financial, legal, or any other wrongdoing, it doesn't really make a difference."
  With the group, as a whole, no. But I feel that if I can help just one JW see the true light, it is worth all my efforts.

  "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled." ~ Matt. 5:6
• 

  teejay

  Cynicus,

  ... what it would take for the average JW to really grasp that the GB, the Org and lots of its doctrine is not what it claims to be.

  ... I think that no issue raised can influence the loyalty of JWs to the GB & the Org on a large scale . Even if the GB, Bethel brass, or just local elders, would be catched with their pants down, in either moral, financial, legal, or any other wrongdoing, it doesn't really make a difference.

  I agree with you. It's exactly why, years ago, I stopped trying to persuade JW family and friends to see the org. the way I do.

  I think it takes a negative experience that strikes the individual personally before they ever start to even think about the Society realistically. I know that's what happened for me. Until that happened for me, I was willing to accept all of the errors, mistakes, flip-flops that you allude to here. It's called "indoctrination."

  peace,
  tj
  ........................
  "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened." -- Sir Winston Churchill
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  Mulan

  For myself, it wasn't any one thing, but a gradual chipping away at the foundation, masterfully accomplished by my husband. One day, it all hit me, and crashed.

  For some close friends, it was merely reading a passage in Matthew about the "faithful slave" and seeing that it was just an illustration, and it all crumbled.

  So, for some (all of us VERY involved and active dubs) it can be one thing, and for other people, it's a long process.

  Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)
  "Those who know, don't say, and those who say, don't know."
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  teejay

  [I]For myself, it wasn't any one thing, but a gradual chipping away at the foundation, masterfully accomplished by my husband.[I]

  Mulan,

  Thanks for saying this. I forget who, but someone once posted how they did what your husband did, and I saved it to file but forgot where I put it. Would you mind telling me how your husband did that? My wife is still a dub but not as active as she once was. She may be ripe for a little deprogramming, but since she can be pretty stubborn, it has to be done right. Thanks.

  tj
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  Xena

  I think some people just couldn't handle it...they have been in the org. for to long...my husband's parents have given their ALL to this religion...how can they possibly ever consider the fact that it was for nothing?

  For me it was little things mounting...and the final straw was the tears in my daughters eyes as I tried to explain why we couldn't celebrate her birthday...why that day wasn't supposed to be special to her or to me...then I realized DAMN IT it WAS special and no one was going to tell me any different!....beginning of the first day of the rest of our lives!
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  teejay

  ... the final straw was the tears in my daughters eyes as I tried to explain why we couldn't celebrate her birthday...why that day wasn't supposed to be special to her or to me...then I realized DAMN IT it WAS special...

  Xena,

  You struck a chord here, my friend. MY b/day ain't all that special to me -- never had a b/day party growing up as a dub -- but my daughter's sure the hell is. And someone tells me that I can't celebrate it with cake and ice cream and some balloons and a gift or two?

  And having the exact same trappings to celebrate a wedding anniversary *IS* okay?

  'F' that. I missed out, my daughter won't. Created a little rift with the JW wife, but hey... she got over it.

  peace,
  tj

  You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free, but first it is going to make you incredibly miserable.

  -- Brenda Clark
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  waiting

  Howdy,

  AlanF made the same point some time back ---- until a jw is confronted in some PERSONAL way with sufficient impact on his life to jar him ----- he will continue to agree to wear his WTBTS & self-imposed blinders.

  The chipping away occurs - but there seems to be a "final straw" for a lot of people. I know my husband and I had ours.

  But all the "small points" made along the way, they stay in the back of the mind, just little nudges - until the big nudge comes along.

  waiting
• 

  RR

  I remember a conversation I had with a JW women which still boggles my mind when I think of it. Asked if one day she opened the Watchtower and it supported the Trinity and other orthodox teachings what would she do? She said, 'nothing, this is Jehovah's organization and I will believe that he is cleaning it up.'

  Asked if it became orthodox, how would you differentiate it from other orthodox religions, she said 'the preaching work and the love we have, two identifying marks.'

  sheesh!!!

  ____________________________
  Religion is man's attempt to reach God,
  Jesus is God's attempt to reach man.
• 

  Makena1

  I can relate to the chipping away that Mulan and others wrote about. For me it started when I finally decided "I" was in a position to devote the time, effort and energy to reach out as an elder. The ticket to the back room was a real let down. Not working with the congregation, going on shepherding calls which I dearly enjoyed, but the interaction with the body - if H.S. was there, I missed it completely. Then the biggest blow came when our daughter committed suicide and how terribly that was handled by the elders and most of the congregation. We read Ray Franz books, which burst my bubble that surely things were handled differently at headquarters - NOT!

  RR wrote: I remember a conversation I had with a JW women which still boggles my mind when I think of it. Asked if one day she opened the Watchtower and it supported the Trinity and other orthodox teachings what would she do? She said, 'nothing, this is Jehovah's organization and I will believe that he is cleaning it up.'

  When I left the WT, and thought about where to go next (2 years, still no decision)for some spiritual discussion (other than the discussion boards!) I always said that it would take Jesus himself appearing to me to make me believe in the Trinity. Does that statement show that I am not quite as blinded as the quote above? lol

  I posted this on another thread, which is the reaction of one of our few JW friends to the info on the UN:
  I went to that site and it sounds like the "disaffected" are disfellowshipped or apostate ones. I'm skeptical to say the least! Like I've always said, Jehovah and his word speaks for itself. All I know is Jehovah's Government is going to rid the world of all oppressive governments and oppressive people inside and outside of his organization! I was just happy to hear what a great impression the brothers & sisters were making in New York since the 9-11 tragedy. The Fire Chief and Mayor Guliani praised them. Plus the Society has been feeding the firefighters and rescue workers for free; transporting them to and from Ground Zero, loaned their equipment, etc. The stuff you never hear about in the news! Also, the Firefighter Commissioner praised the brothers and sisters for the "most important work they've been doing in comforting people'" who are hopeless. I don't know what the "U.N." thing is but I know Jehovah's organization wouldn't have lasted this long if it was due to dishonesty.

  I understand where she is coming from. My only beef with the Guardian article is that it should have stuck to just the facts about the UN, and left out the blood and pedophile issues for another forum.

  JMHO
  Makena