Your son hit the nail on the head!!!! We must also learn to extract the positive out of our negative experiences.
Golf
Count-Down 9: The Meaning of Life
by Amazing 19 Replies latest jw friends
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golf2
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Cellist
Jim, I did understand that the main point of your post is about taking control of our own lives. There's alot of truth in what your son said. But, if you didn't wish to discuss any other issue, why did you make half your original post a shameless plug for the superiority of Catholic worship?
Your analogies for the difference between worshiping and serving are flawed. Unless, of course, you're trying to say that Catholics are polytheists and believe in 'open marriages'. Also, it's not; 'worship' compared to 'serve'. It's 'worship' compared to 'love and serve'. Huge difference.
Now that I'm home from work I'm able to dig out the pertinent volumes from my 'New Catholic Encyclopedia'
According to it, Catholics (indeed, all Christians) worship God. There are five pages on the subject. pg. 1030,31 Vol. 14 it says in part, "The function of worship is, in the first place, to make the Sacred present in the awareness of the worshiper or the worshiping community, as the power of being that safeguards, perserves, renews, or rejuvenates existence, not only in man, society, and mankind, but also in nature and the universe. By making the Holy present, or by recognizing and celebrating the reality of its presence in the world, worship is instrumental also in maintaining the cosmic order as the conditio sine qua non of life and salvation. etc, etc."
In one of the supplements (I only looked in one) there is another page on the subject of worship. On pg. 722 of Vol. 17 it says, "Worship, the act of recognizing the worth of God (the Holy; the Absolute) and the ritual expression of this recognition, is traditionally deemed a part of religion. Religion, in general, is the perceived and accomplished relationship of man to God. ...... For Christian worship the ontology of the Church as Communion is decisive (see Church and Communio)."
If you wish to read all the information in whole, I'm willing to scan them and post them on photobucket. Or, you can just look up the subject in the Catholic Encyclopedia yourself.
Respectfully,
Cellist -
Amazing
Cellist,
But, if you didn't wish to discuss any other issue, why did you make half your original post a shameless plug for the superiority of Catholic worship?
Whoa! Cool your heels! I said nothing of superiority nor was I making any kind of plug for anything. I was stating a fact about something I learned and thought it was applicable to my overall point. I could careless what you or anyone else believes of does not believe ... I am out of the preching and plug business.
Your analogies for the difference between worshiping and serving are flawed. Unless, of course, you're trying to say that Catholics are polytheists and believe in 'open marriages'. Also, it's not; 'worship' compared to 'serve'. It's 'worship' compared to 'love and serve'. Huge difference.
My arguements are not flawed and your reply says nothing to sway the point away from my statements. Serving is different from worship. Polytheism and open marriages are utterly irrelevant and an extremist stretch away from what is a very simple and modest posting.
Now that I'm home from work I'm able to dig out the pertinent volumes from my 'New Catholic Encyclopedia' According to it, Catholics (indeed, all Christians) worship God. There are five pages on the subject. pg. 1030,31 Vol. 14 it says in part, "The function of worship is, in the first place, to make the Sacred present in the awareness of the worshiper or the worshiping community, as the power of being that safeguards, perserves, renews, or rejuvenates existence, not only in man, society, and mankind, but also in nature and the universe. By making the Holy present, or by recognizing and celebrating the reality of its presence in the world, worship is instrumental also in maintaining the cosmic order as the conditio sine qua non of life and salvation. etc, etc." ... In one of the supplements (I only looked in one) there is another page on the subject of worship. On pg. 722 of Vol. 17 it says, "Worship, the act of recognizing the worth of God (the Holy; the Absolute) and the ritual expression of this recognition, is traditionally deemed a part of religion. Religion, in general, is the perceived and accomplished relationship of man to God. ...... For Christian worship the ontology of the Church as Communion is decisive (see Church and Communio)."
I can see that you are in a "prove yourself right mode" and thus you miss my simple thoughts ... I am not in such a mode, and I don't give a good goddamn. Dominican Sisters taught us that our meaning or purpose in life was to know, love and serve God. I just found it interesting ... and as one who grew up in a devaout Catholic environment, I fully comprehend how such things are taught in spite of what Catholic scholars write that Catholcis by and large do not read. For me, it is simple and less obnoxious than beating us over the head with books, encyclopedias and magesterium crap ... I was just stating a historical fact in my own life that impressed me. If you want debate, go argue with scholars who like to choke on hair-splitting meanings of words or phrases. It is like you are trying to prove how ice cream is made ... and I am just enjoying the sweet taste with not a care in the world and imagining that ice cream is made by angels in the clouds.
If you wish to read all the information in whole, I'm willing to scan them and post them on photobucket. Or, you can just look up the subject in the Catholic Encyclopedia yourself.
I have read and studied the Catholic Encyclopedia, Catholic history, Catholic Catechism, the Bible, the Watchtower, ex-JW polemics, Christian history, theological dictionaries, Greek, Mormonism, Adventistism, Protestantism, Orthodoxy, Early Church Fathers, Judaism, and a few other things, etc. etc. etc. until I am blue in the flipping face ... I just don't care anymore ... I am making simple, short posts in my remaining time and I really don't need to debate such technicalities ... my days of straining out the gnats and swallowing camels are over!Jim Whitney
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Cellist
Hi Jim,
Sorry to keep bugging you with this, but may I point out that you were the one doing "the straining", I'm saying quit straining - there's no difference. All I asked in the beginning is "what is the difference?"
It sounded like a distinction with no distinction to me. If you would've come back with the statement, that's just my personal gut feeling inside - fine. But it came across sounding more like pronouncements of facts rather than personal ramblings. To me, pronouncements are invitations to questioning.
My comments that you felt were over-the-top were in relation to your definition of "worship" (which the Catholic Church supposedly doesn't teach) Quote: "Highest form of devotion to someone to the exclusion of others". Monotheism is the devotion of the Biblical God to the exclusion of all other gods. Christian marriage is the joining of oneself to another to the exclusion of all others. At least, that's what I've been told. So, the natural progression of thought is that, if you feel all of this is not taught by the Catholic Church then they must teach the opposite.
And, why I said it was a flawed analogy is because (aside from what's stated above) although we may serve our bosses, we don't usually "know, love and serve them". If you still don't understand what I'm getting at, I'd like to suggest maybe going back and rereading what you wrote at the beginning.
Anyway, that is all I'm going to say on the matter. I will now leave you alone to your peace. (Unless you provoke me badly in a reply) ;) I do understand that what comes from "the Church" is not necessarily what's believed. In the same way, what comes down from the WTS is not what's necessarily known or believed by the average JW.
Sincerely,
Cellist -
jaguarbass
How do I look inside my heart without killing myself? An ex- ray?
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greendawn
I think what you are trying to say is that worshipping God equates with the JW way of relating to God which is based on pressure and fear (emotional terrorism) whereas the modern Catholic way is more relaxed and based on loving God rather than fearing him. Whatever one does is out of genuine personal motivation (as and when one feels like it) undisturbed by fear or other negative emotion. There shouldn't be the least hint of being forced or acting under unnatural, strained influences.
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Amazing
Cellist,
Sorry to keep bugging you with this, but may I point out that you were the one doing "the straining", I'm saying quit straining - there's no difference. All I asked in the beginning is "what is the difference?" It sounded like a distinction with no distinction to me. If you would've come back with the statement, that's just my personal gut feeling inside - fine. But it came across sounding more like pronouncements of facts rather than personal ramblings. To me, pronouncements are invitations to questioning.
There is a huge distinction between worship and service. In Greek, for example, "proskuneo" is translated as "worship" and merely involves prostrating oneself before a superior, usually God. It inolves no act of service. One can offer service as part of their worship, and that is fine. But, by definition in any language I am familiar, they are quite different terms. If you wish to confuse the terms and then "pronounce" that I am drawing distinctions without differences, then that is your level of thinking. The emphasis taught to us by Dominican Sisters was on love and knowledge of God, whereas worship was not so emphasized. I drew upon that training to link it to how one might see the meaning of life in context of belief in God in 2007. Others may not relate to such meaning for they may not believe in God, or they may have other notions of what God is. My point is not a rambling, but a simple set of statements that hold meaning to me.
My comments that you felt were over-the-top were in relation to your definition of "worship" (which the Catholic Church supposedly doesn't teach) Quote: "Highest form of devotion to someone to the exclusion of others". Monotheism is the devotion of the Biblical God to the exclusion of all other gods. Christian marriage is the joining of oneself to another to the exclusion of all others. At least, that's what I've been told. So, the natural progression of thought is that, if you feel all of this is not taught by the Catholic Church then they must teach the opposite.
In no way did I argue what the Catholic Church teaches officially, formally, currently, or historically. The Church has changed some of its teachings over time. I only pointed out the emphasis made by Dominican Sisters that impressed me when I was growing up in Catholic School.
And, why I said it was a flawed analogy is because (aside from what's stated above) although we may serve our bosses, we don't usually "know, love and serve them". If you still don't understand what I'm getting at, I'd like to suggest maybe going back and rereading what you wrote at the beginning.
The onus is on you to demonstrate how I used a flawed or false analogy. Though we serve our bosses, we can not only know them, we can be close friends, family, and married to the boss. The Old Testament has examples of people who did not worship God but ended up serving him, while others who worshipped God failed to serve him. In the first case, Nebuchadnezzer, King of Babylon, served the God of the Hebrews but never worshiped him. An Assyrian King (forget his name at the moment) was cured of leporsy, and worshipped God but never served him. Slaves can be forced into service and hate their masters, and slaves can love their masters and voluntarily stay in their servitude. And neither kind of slave will necessarily worship their master. Service and worship are by their very definition very different words, and you have utterly failed to make your case that I have made a distinction without a difference.Anyway, that is all I'm going to say on the matter. I will now leave you alone to your peace. (Unless you provoke me badly in a reply) ;) I do understand that what comes from "the Church" is not necessarily what's believed. In the same way, what comes down from the WTS is not what's necessarily known or believed by the average JW.
Your last statement is a matter of debate.
Jim Whitney
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Cellist
Jim,
I agree with you, there's a huge difference between worship and serve. Where I think the distinction becomes blurred is between worship and 'know, love and serve'. But, as you said yourself, one can be said to worship their spouse.
Thank you for taking the time to explain more fully what you meant. I think I have a better picture of where you are coming from now.
LOL @ your last statement. Indeed, personal experience can be debated endlessly.
Sincerely,
Cellist
edited to add: Sorry, Jim. I went back and reread my first comment and I failed to put the "know and love" before the serve. No wonder you were confused at what I was trying to say. It never pays to post in a hurry. -
NanaR
Jim,
I love your son's comment!!
Jesus said (of feeding him when he was hungry, etc.), "To the extent you did it to one of these least ones, you did it to me."
The meaning I am finding in life, that was sorely missing in my JW "training", is to really SEE and RESPOND to the needs of those around me. To find the Divine in the everyday has been a great blessing to me.
We have spent our lives debating the meaning of words and "splitting hairs". I, too, choose to debate no more.
"To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh"... (especially rainbow colored 192 page books and their corollaries *hah*).
Ruth -
bebu
Nice thread!
A great quote from John Piper, a Christian hedonist. I agree with it! In essence, the doctrine
The chief end of man is to glorify God AND enjoy him forever
is better expressed as
The chief end of man is to glorify God BY enjoying him forever.
http://www.desiringgod.org/dg/id87.htm
bebu